Democratic Party Presidential Candidates for 2020

[Katheryne Helendale]

I'm shocked only that this is the first of these I've heard.

It took them a lot longer than I had expected.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

You can't make a direct translation between dollars spent on this and people who stayed home or voted third party.

I think that you strongly underestimate the power of propaganda. Dollars spent mean less when a large enough portion of your target audience do a portion of your work for you. They also worked all angles, attempting to attract and pinpoint exact desires by, at times, groups that were at complete odds by targeting their specific agendas. An example would be creating false Black Lives Matter groups or postings while simultaneously creating false Blue Lives Matter groups or postings.

 

[Cristalle]

I think that you strongly underestimate the power of propaganda. Dollars spent mean less when a large enough portion of your target audience do a portion of your work for you. They also worked all angles, attempting to attract and pinpoint exact desires by, at times, groups that were at complete odds by targeting their specific agendas. An example would be creating false Black Lives Matter groups or postings while simultaneously creating false Blue Lives Matter groups or postings.

I'm not saying that it can't happen, but that it is hard to quantify.

 

[Anya Ristow]

I think that you strongly underestimate the power of propaganda.

I agree completely. When I say I vote against the six corporations who control the media, and the plutocrats they represent, it is because I see that the propaganda works, and I see that as perhaps *the* greatest threat to our supposed democracy. And when I read threads like this I am reminded that the propaganda works, even among those who say they are skeptical of the media or don't watch it, and I am emboldened to stick to my guns: I am fighting corporate, plutocratic propaganda that obviously has control of our supposed democracy.

 

[Anya Ristow]

I don't think the question is so gross, though I agree that there is bias and hypocrisy in not also asking it of Biden's surrogates. And the answer and discussion are good.

 

[Anya Ristow]

I'm not saying that it can't happen, but that it is hard to quantify.

What did happen is that a guy trusted to provide intelligence on the Russian campaign did the same damned thing with the same budget in a much smaller election, and that "experiment" was called harmless because it was so "small".

What did happen is that an American super PAC illegally working directly with a campaign had a propaganda budget sixty times larger than the Russian's, and we aren't discussing whether that had an impact.

What did happen is every mainstream news outfit streamed propaganda with budgets in the billions

What did happen is one of the candidates chose Donald Trump as her opponent and encouraged the DNC and the media to take him seriously, and whether they were acting on her behalf or on their own, they did, in fact, give him platforms worth billions.

What did happen is that the losing candidate's lawyers had an opportunity to manually count 75,000 ballots that were almost certainly almost all for her, in a state she lost by just 11,000 votes, and they instead, inexplicably, said they were just there to observe, and watched a manual count on someone else's dime get tossed out of court.

What did happen is that the losing candidate failed to campaign in three states that turned out to be pivotal.

What did happen is that the losing candidate's political novice opponent ran an electoral college campaign and was ridiculed by Rachel Maddow for doing so.

What did happen is that one of the candidates pre-positioned a friend to control the DNC, then gave the DNC $20M for control of "staffing, funding and message" during the primary, and the resulting sabotage, even before there was proof it had happened, so enraged some of the electorate that that candidate was a tough sell, even with Donald Fucking Trump as her opponent.

But it was the Russians. [okay, that one may have been brilliant ]

 

[Anya Ristow]

An example would be creating false Black Lives Matter groups or postings while simultaneously creating false Blue Lives Matter groups or postings.

The Thirteen Indictments described the likely motivation for doing this: ad revenue. Get people to follow topics interesting to Americans, post links to external websites, profit. Additionally, only 46% of the ads ran before the election. The election was just an interesting current even to play off of. The campaign continued after the election.

Are the Russians meddling in American politics and stirring up trouble? Of course they are. Did a $100K facebook ad campaign influence an election? Enough to change the outcome? If it did, maybe HRC should hire them.

The Russian facebook campaign was barely culturally aware, let alone fluent in the language. If it was the work of the GRU, it wasn't their best effort. But most importantly, the ads were laughable. It is deeply insulting to be told my views came from this inept campaign.

 

[Eunoli]

I'm not saying that it can't happen, but that it is hard to quantify.

False.

In fact, MIT did a whole study on it last year. Fake news spreads faster and more widely than actual real news - for far less the cost than 'regular' news due to its high sharing rate - and it is indeed quantifiable.

Study: On Twitter, false news travels faster than true stories

A new study by three MIT scholars has found that false news spreads more rapidly on the social network Twitter than real news does — and by a substantial margin.

“We found that falsehood diffuses significantly farther, faster, deeper, and more broadly than the truth, in all categories of information, and in many cases by an order of magnitude,” says Sinan Aral, a professor at the MIT Sloan School of Management and co-author of a new paper detailing the findings.

“These findings shed new light on fundamental aspects of our online communication ecosystem,” says Deb Roy, an associate professor of media arts and sciences at the MIT Media Lab and director of the Media Lab’s Laboratory for Social Machines (LSM), who is also a co-author of the study. Roy adds that the researchers were “somewhere between surprised and stunned” at the different trajectories of true and false news on Twitter.

Moreover, the scholars found, the spread of false information is essentially not due to bots that are programmed to disseminate inaccurate stories. Instead, false news speeds faster around Twitter due to people retweeting inaccurate news items.

 

[Anya Ristow]

Study: On Twitter, false news travels faster than true stories

Doesn't mention the Russian campaign, let alone compare it in sophistication or scope to American efforts.

 

[Cristalle]

False.

In fact, MIT did a whole study on it last year. Fake news spreads faster and more widely than actual real news - for far less the cost than 'regular' news due to its high sharing rate - and it is indeed quantifiable.

Study: On Twitter, false news travels faster than true stories

This is stupid. I keep saying that you cannot translate this activity into a remotely precise number of votes for third parties or people who stayed home. That's the whole point of this operation, yes? And I keep getting junk like this back. You can't tell me that one Black Lives Matter meme translates into x amount of suppression.

 

[Spirits Rising]

Oh for fuck sake ... The relevant fact is that it happened - at all. You can try to quantify it all you want, hand wave it all you want, cme up with some alternate explanation all you want and spout all the conspiracist bullshit all you want - it's not going to change a god damned thing. It. Happened.

The focus now ought to be on how to minimize damage going forward - to keep it from skewing further elections. The genie is out of the fucking bottle now, time to focus on damage control.

And yes, this is a generalized post - if you take offense to it or feel as if you're being called out, ask yourself why before responding or reacting. Actually use your fucking brain. No, that does not mean to cling to whatever absolute bullshit of the month you've been reading to bolster your own personal fucing view that things were in some way unfair or rigged last time or that one candidate or another this time has some unfair advantage or some other fucking bullshit.

And now a directed bit: If you somehow believe there's some kind of "othering" going on in this thread (or on the board with regard to politics) then about the only thing I have to say is the following - sit the fuck down, grow the fuck up and stop pretending you or others are somehow being bullied when others react to you or anyone else spouting bullshit. Focus in on your ideal candidates and your ideals, sure ... Don't expect everyone to share your views, your ideals, your ideology or to be focused on the same things you are. Some of us want nothing more than to remove the piece of shit currently in office and to maybe get back some of what was taken from us (as a whole contry) and are more than willing to see it take years to accomplish. A single fucking office isn't going to magically grant you your every fucking wish - it's nothing more than a gatekeeper and roadblock at best (yes, even with the bloody executive orders). Focus on the Legislative Branch, working your way up each level.

Oh who the fuck am I kidding ...

Pout, laugh ... whatever makes you feel better at night. You will anyway and utterly ignore what's been said by anyone here that doesn't agree with you, making up some bullshit that fits your internal narrative.

Perhaps if shit hits the fan again you'll actually listen next time.

 

[Soen Eber]

Didn't someone famous once say that a lie spreads around the world while the truth is getting its trousers on? And didn't someone else once say that the truth must be protected by a bodyguard of lies?

We are truly f*cked when we care about the truth, our enemies don't, and those inbetween don't believe they can trust any body. It's a mug's game, played by fools, and I don't see any way around the lies and the scorched earth tactics that have been used against us and all conception of reason beyond "the truth that is merely convenient" which is spread amongst us by lazy well-fed slaves who prattle their master's arguments.

How do we get out?

Yeah, sometimes I go poetic.

 

[Eunoli]

Didn't someone famous once say that a lie spreads around the world while the truth is getting its trousers on? And didn't someone else once say that the truth must be protected by a bodyguard of lies?

Don't bother, Soen. You are speaking to the "we will say anything to protect the views of the alt-right" in this thread.

 

[Anya Ristow]

If you somehow believe there's some kind of "othering" going on in this thread

I'll own this one since I think it was me who used the word. It was meant as hyperbole. I think Han Held took it as such and responded with amusement. Sorry, I recognize that it may not be so amusing on "the other side" [ducks]

To be honest, this thread has been way more thoughtful than arguments past. I don't see a lot of low effort sniping and back slapping. Strong disagreement, some of it over the line, but not so much low-effort "othering." Lots of effort being put into posts, and I appreciate it, even when I disagree.

I've been accused in not so many words of being a closet Trump supporter, because I don't say much about him. Thing is, everyone else does, so my participation would be redundant. I have no time for that. I barely have time to participate as a minority voice, which I think is way more important. I'll talk about things that we don't already agree on. If that makes me an "other", or makes me seem argumentative, then so be it. After this long participating on SLU and VVO I can hardly say I don't know what I'm getting into. I wouldn't bother if I thought it was pointless.

Peace.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

False.

In fact, MIT did a whole study on it last year. Fake news spreads faster and more widely than actual real news - for far less the cost than 'regular' news due to its high sharing rate - and it is indeed quantifiable.

Study: On Twitter, false news travels faster than true stories

Indeed. The more sensational the headline, the faster it'll spread. And people will believe it, either because they want it to be true, or are afraid it might be true.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

Oh for fuck sake ... The relevant fact is that it happened - at all. You can try to quantify it all you want, hand wave it all you want, cme up with some alternate explanation all you want and spout all the conspiracist bullshit all you want - it's not going to change a god damned thing. It. Happened.

The focus now ought to be on how to minimize damage going forward - to keep it from skewing further elections. The genie is out of the fucking bottle now, time to focus on damage control.

 

[Cristalle]

Don't bother, Soen. You are speaking to the "we will say anything to protect the views of the alt-right" in this thread.

You really think we're trying to protect the alt right? People who are diehard Bernie want the alt right? Give me a break. That's utterly deranged.

 

[Cristalle]

Oh for fuck sake ... The relevant fact is that it happened - at all. You can try to quantify it all you want, hand wave it all you want, cme up with some alternate explanation all you want and spout all the conspiracist bullshit all you want - it's not going to change a god damned thing. It. Happened.

The focus now ought to be on how to minimize damage going forward - to keep it from skewing further elections. The genie is out of the fucking bottle now, time to focus on damage control.

And yes, this is a generalized post - if you take offense to it or feel as if you're being called out, ask yourself why before responding or reacting. Actually use your fucking brain. No, that does not mean to cling to whatever absolute bullshit of the month you've been reading to bolster your own personal fucing view that things were in some way unfair or rigged last time or that one candidate or another this time has some unfair advantage or some other fucking bullshit.

And now a directed bit: If you somehow believe there's some kind of "othering" going on in this thread (or on the board with regard to politics) then about the only thing I have to say is the following - sit the fuck down, grow the fuck up and stop pretending you or others are somehow being bullied when others react to you or anyone else spouting bullshit. Focus in on your ideal candidates and your ideals, sure ... Don't expect everyone to share your views, your ideals, your ideology or to be focused on the same things you are. Some of us want nothing more than to remove the piece of shit currently in office and to maybe get back some of what was taken from us (as a whole contry) and are more than willing to see it take years to accomplish. A single fucking office isn't going to magically grant you your every fucking wish - it's nothing more than a gatekeeper and roadblock at best (yes, even with the bloody executive orders). Focus on the Legislative Branch, working your way up each level.

Oh who the fuck am I kidding ...

Pout, laugh ... whatever makes you feel better at night. You will anyway and utterly ignore what's been said by anyone here that doesn't agree with you, making up some bullshit that fits your internal narrative.

Perhaps if shit hits the fan again you'll actually listen next time.

OOOh, Internet tough guy!

 

[Eunoli]

You really think we're trying to protect the alt right? People who are diehard Bernie want the alt right? Give me a break. That's utterly deranged.

No. I think you're drinking the alt-right koolaid because it fits your goal. It is still alt-right generated koolaid, however.

 

[Spirits Rising]

Aww, way to utterly miss the point and solidify thet you're only responding to your own little narrative.

Yep, yer still not interested in anything even resembling actual discourse.