Coup in the USA?

[Innula Zenovka]

SCP-1678 - SCP Foundation

The SCP Foundation's 'top-secret' archives, declassified for your enjoyment.

www.scpwiki.com

 

[Rose Karuna]

Just in case you want to give some names to the FBI: Faces of the Riot

edited to say; It looks to me like most of the people in the pictures have one of two looks, either batshit crazy or meaner than one a one eyed snake.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

The only thing that I'd like to point, is that Biden has not even been in office a full week; the people making these decisions are probably not his appointees.

Its still angering that its happening, but this is like giving credit or blame to a president for the economy during the first year of their term.

I agree, he has to turn a ship with a paddle. Many on the left seem to have unrealistic expectations for what the democrats are supposed to do and how FAST they must do it. I know so many leftists who will say in so many words they won't support the democrats because they aren't all powerful.

 

[Isabeau]

Oh no, not those leftists! Damn them.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Oh no, not those leftists! Damn them.

Nothing against the leftists who weren't too "pure" to vote for Biden, lol.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The only thing that I'd like to point, is that Biden has not even been in office a full week; the people making these decisions are probably not his appointees.

Its still angering that its happening, but this is like giving credit or blame to a president for the economy during the first year of their term.

These decisions haven't yet been made, though -- the report says they're being discussed, somewhat vigorously, within the Justice Department, and I can understand why, particularly if the Federal Courts are anything like as backed-up because of Covid-19 as the English Crown Courts.

The Justice Dept has only a limited number of prosecutors and investigators, who will also be planning a large, related, and long-overdue, investigation into white supremacist and other far-right domestic terrorist groups, which will also almost certainly lead to complex prosecutions involving multiple defendants and even more serious charges than those faced by many of the people who invaded the Capitol building.

While obviously one hopes they will prosecute all the people who they can identify as having invaded the building or committed crimes additional to criminal trespass, they'll have to prioritise their workload, and it seems only sensible to give priority to investigating and prosecuting the ringleaders and organisers, those who committed crimes of violence or property destruction while in the building, and those who seem to have been carrying out pre-arranged plans or working as organised groups.

To my mind, President Biden should stay well out of those discussions -- he should concentrate on making sure Merrick Garland has the resources he needs, and then let him get on with job.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

These decisions haven't yet been made, though -- the report says they're being discussed, somewhat vigorously, within the Justice Department, and I can understand why, particularly if the Federal Courts are anything like as backed-up because of Covid-19 as the English Crown Courts.

The Justice Dept has only a limited number of prosecutors and investigators, who will also be planning a large, related, and long-overdue, investigation into white supremacist and other far-right domestic terrorist groups, which will also almost certainly lead to complex prosecutions involving multiple defendants and even more serious charges than those faced by many of the people who invaded the Capitol building.

While obviously one hopes they will prosecute all the people who they can identify as having invaded the building or committed crimes additional to criminal trespass, they'll have to prioritise their workload, and it seems only sensible to give priority to investigating and prosecuting the ringleaders and organisers, those who committed crimes of violence or property destruction while in the building, and those who seem to have been carrying out pre-arranged plans or working as organised groups.

To my mind, President Biden should stay well out of those discussions -- he should concentrate on making sure Merrick Garland has the resources he needs, and then let him get on with job.

Well, except some have been made - the decision to keep the black man in jail until trial, while allowing white men and women out on bail or to parental custody - FFS, the last makes like she's a 15 yr old - normally parental custody is only for minors, iirc, not adults.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

The only thing that I'd like to point, is that Biden has not even been in office a full week; the people making these decisions are probably not his appointees.

Its still angering that its happening, but this is like giving credit or blame to a president for the economy during the first year of their term.

The bigger issue, in my mind, is the inherent racism at every single level of our justice system, even extending as far as allowing them to openly commit crimes and leave the premises to be followed by many not being arrested at all, and those who are being charged with misdemeanors.

Oh, I'm not blaming Biden...well, not yet in any event. Christopher Wray should not be in place and a few other people he could have in place/replace to make sure that justice is served. If he is serious about even attempting to address racial inequities in our justice system he will find a way to hold these people responsible even if it means replacing the troublesome Christopher Wray at some political cost.

This cannot be an instance where he takes the easy road for political expediency. He has made promises to address inequities and this is a prime example. Justice needs to be swift, in the sense of charges. The longer this goes on the more people make excuses for their attempted coup.

 

[Isabeau]

I don’t see how looking forward and stating what you would like to see in the future as blaming.

I hope people won’t be accused of not being real Democrats or not real Americans as we’ve seen in the past every time they disagree with some policy or criticize their government. That is another form of purist.

In any case, these are early days, but for me, when I see people engage in political discourse, on any issue, it makes me happy because it means people are invested in the process. These types of people are more likely to vote, not the opposite.

Coups - not good
Apathy - not good
Not voting - not good

Who are the ones not voting?

Poll: Despite Record Turnout, 80 Million Americans Didn't Vote. Here's Why

Nonvoters are disengaged and don't believe politics can make a difference in their lives. They are also more likely to be Latino, younger, make less money and have lower levels of education.

www.npr.org

Nonvoters 2020: Counted Out - Medill News Service

Although more Americans voted in November’s presidential election than in any other in the last century, about one-third of eligible voters did not cast ballots—and, by a wider margin than in the past, it’s because they simply did not want to. According to a Medill School of Journalism/NPR/Ipsos...

dc.medill.northwestern.edu

 

[Jolene Benoir]

I don’t see how looking forward and stating what you would like to see in the future as blaming.

I hope people won’t be accused of not being real Democrats or not real Americans as we’ve seen in the past every time they disagree with some policy or criticize their government. That is another form of purist.

In any case, these are early days, but for me, when I see people engage in political discourse, on any issue, it makes me happy because it means people are invested in the process. These types of people are more likely to vote, not the opposite.

Coups - not good
Apathy - not good
Not voting - not good

Who are the ones not voting?

Poll: Despite Record Turnout, 80 Million Americans Didn't Vote. Here's Why

Nonvoters are disengaged and don't believe politics can make a difference in their lives. They are also more likely to be Latino, younger, make less money and have lower levels of education.

www.npr.org

Nonvoters 2020: Counted Out - Medill News Service

Although more Americans voted in November’s presidential election than in any other in the last century, about one-third of eligible voters did not cast ballots—and, by a wider margin than in the past, it’s because they simply did not want to. According to a Medill School of Journalism/NPR/Ipsos...

dc.medill.northwestern.edu

Exactly, I'm not placing blame on Biden. Lord knows he has inherited one hell of a mess at both the FBI and the DOJ. I'm not even sure that I would blame him if these people don't face the justice system. I would be very disappointed, though. I'm willing to give it some time, but the longer this goes on the more these people feel as though the justice system doesn't apply to them, and we do all know why. Others, who have been on the wrong end of justice will lose even more faith, in my opinion.

I don't expect him to be able to overcome centuries of injustice overnight. I would like him to make a good faith effort in holding them accountable by putting people in place who will do just that. The cry for unity does not, to me, mean we should just let an attempted coup, or the people who participated in it, escape justice, no matter how much Republicans cry foul.

It WILL come back to bite us in the ass, as well. They will feel ever more emboldened.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

I didn't think anyone here was blaming Biden, we tend to be a fairly savvy lot. But seeing plenty of it elsewhere.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Well, except some have been made - the decision to keep the black man in jail until trial, while allowing white men and women out on bail or to parental custody - FFS, the last makes like she's a 15 yr old - normally parental custody is only for minors, iirc, not adults.

Those are bail decisions, though, which are normally made the judge, aren't they?

I mean, the prosecution can object to bail or not, but they're not the ones who grant it.

That decision is made by the court, based on the circumstances of the individual case and how much of a risk they think there is of the defendant jumping bail, committing further offences while on bail, or interfering with witnesses or otherwise attempting to hinder the investigation.

At least that's how it works here, and I would imagine courts everywhere must ask similar questions.

And are you complaining that they're keeping "the black man" (whoever that is) in custody when he should have been bailed, or do you say they should be denying bail to everyone?

(I'm used to the rules in the British system, where the defendant has the right to bail, unless there's a good reason not to grant it, and cash bail, whether secured or not, is very rarely used, so I don't really understand how the US system works)

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

Those are bail decisions, though, which are normally made the judge, aren't they?

I mean, the prosecution can object to bail or not, but they're not the ones who grant it.

That decision is made by the court, based on the circumstances of the individual case and how much of a risk they think there is of the defendant jumping bail, committing further offences while on bail, or interfering with witnesses or otherwise attempting to hinder the investigation.

At least that's how it works here, and I would imagine courts everywhere must ask similar questions.

And are you complaining that they're keeping "the black man" (whoever that is) in custody when he should have been bailed, or do you say they should be denying bail to everyone?

(I'm used to the rules in the British system, where the defendant has the right to bail, unless there's a good reason not to grant it, and cash bail, whether secured or not, is very rarely used, so I don't really understand how the US system works)

I don't care, it needs to be fair, though. Also, this all started as a response to something further up - let me find it.

The Justice System Is Going Too Easy on the White Insurrectionists

The Biden administration will be judged by how seriously it prosecutes the white supremacists who tried to overturn the election.

www.thenation.com

 

[Essence Lumin]

Those are bail decisions, though, which are normally made the judge, aren't they?

I'm not sure what Aribeth is referring to. I can tell you there is no bail system at all for federal crimes.

 

[Soen Eber]

(I'm used to the rules in the British system, where the defendant has the right to bail, unless there's a good reason not to grant it, and cash bail, whether secured or not, is very rarely used, so I don't really understand how the US system works)

There is an established bail bonds industry in the U.S. since late in the 19th century. Like all industries, they have lobbying groups and make donations to political candidates which, in many states, include judges. Many poor people cannot raise the necessary cash bond and must remain in jail until their trial, which can often takes several months. In some cases, it can take years, like one juvenile who was in Rykers Island for two years. Lack of funding and other priorities often puts the lie to the constitutional protection for a swift and speedy trial.

From The Marshall Project

Reform advocates say this creates unequal justice for rich and poor—effectively jailing un-convicted people simply because they don’t have access to money at the right time. Staying in jail has cascading effects: While people are in jail awaiting trial, they can’t work or spend time with their families; they face pressure to plead guilty just to avoid the misery of being locked up. Jailed defendants also often lose their jobs and suffer physical and emotional trauma.

From a public policy perspective, research suggests that the economic and emotional consequences of being jailed for bail leave people more desperate and unstable than they would have otherwise been, and may actually lead to more, not less crime.

 

[Soen Eber]

I'm not sure what Aribeth is referring to. I can tell you there is no bail system at all for federal crimes.

There is pre-release for federal crimes, which the judge will consider. Usually pre-release is granted unless the crime has a normal sentence of 10 years or more, involves terrorism, involves a minor, etc.

 

[Essence Lumin]

There is pre-release for federal crimes, which the judge will consider. Usually pre-release is granted unless the crime has a normal sentence of 10 years or more, involves terrorism, involves a minor, etc.

Yes, prerelease but no bail.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

There is an established bail bonds industry in the U.S. since late in the 19th century. Like all industries, they have lobbying groups and make donations to political candidates which, in many states, include judges. Many poor people cannot raise the necessary cash bond and must remain in jail until their trial, which can often takes several months. In some cases, it can take years, like one juvenile who was in Rykers Island for two years. Lack of funding and other priorities often puts the lie to the constitutional protection for a swift and speedy trials.

From The Marshall Project

Does that apply to the Federal courts too? Do they often insist on cash bail?

It really seems indefensible to me -- I mean, the defendant is innocent until proven guilty, so the only question then is whether or not she or he is a flight risk, or likely to commit more crimes/try to hamper the investigation.

As I say, we hardly ever use cash bail, and then it's almost always in serious cases where the defendant would normally expect to be bailed but there are questions about whether he might flee the country, with or without a passport.

Then, if it's only an issue because, although based here, the defendant has sufficiently close connections with another country that he might be tempted to try to disappear there, and then sometimes his parents will offer the value of their house or something to guarantee he won't flee.

Otherwise, though, it shouldn't depend on your ability to pay.

 

[Soen Eber]

Does that apply to the Federal courts too? Do they often insist on cash bail?

It really seems indefensible to me -- I mean, the defendant is innocent until proven guilty, so the only question then is whether or not she or he is a flight risk, or likely to commit more crimes/try to hamper the investigation.

As I say, we hardly ever use cash bail, and then it's almost always in serious cases where the defendant would normally expect to be bailed but there are questions about whether he might flee the country, with or without a passport.

Then, if it's only an issue because, although based here, the defendant has sufficiently close connections with another country that he might be tempted to try to disappear there, and then sometimes his parents will offer the value of their house or something to guarantee his return.

Otherwise, though, it shouldn't depend on your ability to pay.

Like Essence said, no bail for federal offenses. It all hangs on the judge giving pre-release, no money involved.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Like Essence said, no bail for federal offenses. It all hangs on the judge giving pre-release, no money involved.

Difference in terminology, I think -- here you're either remanded in custody or granted bail, and if it's bail there's hardly ever any money involved.