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Katheryne Helendale

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Indeed, but you see the issue is that politics didn't act on it on time when we still could effortlessly do so and we are going to waste more time if this thing is still to be allowed to be a showstopper. So the clock is now ticking quite fast while the time space decreases madly.

So in the end if we are serious about it, then politics has to move out the people slowly out of their comfort zones, otherwise it is never going to happen. Hence the idea of a carbon tax. Such a tax though is only going to show the wanted effects it you are going to feel its presence right from the beginning, not with an overwhelming presence - but the impact needs to be felt, and to increase over time. Otherwise a change is never going to happen soon enough.
I don't disagree with you. But I think you'll find that what the general public will tolerate in terms of departure from their comfort zone is pretty small. You should have seen and heard the outcry when incandescent light bulbs were pulled from store shelves. And that was just a light bulb.

But you're right, this is a process that should have started decades ago. Unfortunately, politics is very short-sighted, and preferred profits and economic growth over climate sustainability. And it still is.
 

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Well, yeah that's all true Beebo. It's just frustrating reading that 30% of the population are big Trump supporters when he is so evil. They seem to have so much hate. I don't understand their motivation well. I wish I had a better understanding. He doesn't do anything good for them economically or any other way that i know of.
Their motivation: White, suburban, Christian males have been in dominance for decades. Their self-proclaimed positions of power are being threatened by non-Christians (or at least non-evangelicals), non-whites, and women in power. They must do everything they can to put down that threat and hold on to their power.
 
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Their motivation: White, suburban, Christian males have been in dominance for decades. Their self-proclaimed positions of power are being threatened by non-Christians (or at least non-evangelicals), non-whites, and women in power. They must do everything they can to put down that threat and hold on to their power.
That could be part of it but I find it hard to imagine that makes up 30% of the US population.
 

danielravennest

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With the following addendum, it's been around universities for 50 years or more:

"Do be do be do." Frank Sinatra
That's the punch line to this graffiti:

“To be is to do”—Socrates.
“To do is to be”—Jean-Paul Sartre.
“Do be do be do”—Frank Sinatra.
 

danielravennest

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In the U.S., the government is unlikely to lead the charge against climate change. They will follow the times and enact change when it's safe to do so, when it's not a losing issue at the voting booth. There is no mechanism for moving people outside of their comfort zone, unless industry suddenly decides to go green with a vengeance. I'm not holding my breath for that.
Who is taking the lead is industry, because of the usual reason, money:

Coal costs see PacifiCorp turn to major solar-plus-storage build-out

PacifiCorp has formalised a long-anticipated shift from coal to solar, wind and battery storage, setting ambitious targets underpinned by a belief in clean energy’s sound economics. The utility, a subsidiary of Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Energy, recently unveiled a roadmap that would see it add nearly 3GW of new solar by 2025 and 6.3GW by 2038. The firm’s “preferred portfolio” would also feature a major wind roll-out – with 4.6GW in new capacity installed by 2038 – and, in a first for the utility, energy storage. ...

The clean energy build-up will come alongside a major wind-down of PacifiCorp’s coal portfolio, with 20 of its 24 units powered by the fossil fuel – nearly 4.5GW – to be disconnected by 2038.
 

danielravennest

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Well, yeah that's all true Beebo. It's just frustrating reading that 30% of the population are big Trump supporters when he is so evil. They seem to have so much hate. I don't understand their motivation well. I wish I had a better understanding. He doesn't do anything good for them economically or any other way that i know of.
Their motivation is pretty easy to understand. The US is becoming more racially and culturally diverse. That is both because whites have a lower fertility rate than blacks and hispanics, and because the US has a lot of immigration, legal and nonlegal. "Their kind", white protestant christian conservatives, are already a numerical minority, and becoming more so every year. If you look at demographics by age, even their children are abandoning conservative christianity. Not all the young people, of course, but a lot of them. What they fear is losing power and becoming irrelevant.

This explains many of the things they do. I live in Georgia, and looking around, you see lots of private Christian schools. The parents are taking their kids out of public schools because they feel they are too secular. It's mostly futile, because all the kids have smartphones and see the rest of the culture anyway, but they try anyway. The huge numbers of people in prison are to slow the birth rates. If they are locked up, they can't make as many babies. The desire to kill off immigration and abortion, in the hopes of slowing the demographic changes. Trump caters to their fears, so they voted for him. They'd be even happier with Pence, but Trump has said all the right things, and done many of the things they want.
 

danielravennest

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That could be part of it but I find it hard to imagine that makes up 30% of the US population.
I don't know where you live, but I spent 26 years in Alabama, and now 5 in Georgia, and have traveled through many other red states. Yes, they are all over the place. Mainly in more rural areas, where they are less exposed to other kinds of people, and therefore afraid of them. But rural areas are often depopulating. The younger generation moves to the cities where the jobs are. That's been going on for a century. So their share of the total population is going down.
 
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I don't know where you live, but I spent 26 years in Alabama, and now 5 in Georgia, and have traveled through many other red states. Yes, they are all over the place. Mainly in more rural areas, where they are less exposed to other kinds of people, and therefore afraid of them. But rural areas are often depopulating. The younger generation moves to the cities where the jobs are. That's been going on for a century. So their share of the total population is going down.
Thanks.

As far as where I live, I'm very public about it. It says on every post below my AV, NJ near Philly.
 

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Indeed, but you see the issue is that politics didn't act on it on time when we still could effortlessly do so and we are going to waste more time if this thing is still to be allowed to be a showstopper. So the clock is now ticking quite fast while the time space decreases madly.

So in the end if we are serious about it, then politics has to move out the people slowly out of their comfort zones, otherwise it is never going to happen. Hence the idea of a carbon tax. Such a tax though is only going to show the wanted effects it you are going to feel its presence right from the beginning, not with an overwhelming presence - but the impact needs to be felt, and to increase over time. Otherwise a change is never going to happen soon enough.

Sweden for example introduced its carbon tax already in 1991. Anyway... if mankind is too dumb to turn the boat around, then so be it., then all what is coming to us is well deserved.
Nope. I’m not going to be backed into a position where poor people get blamed for the decisions of oligarchs.

If we don’t include social justice in action on the climate, it won’t happen anyway, because either social disorder or demagoguery will destroy the ability of the state to do any good.

You’re assuming a powerful state with democratic traditions. It’s not at all clear we have one here.

You are also still not understanding the size of our population in remote regions. You’re not just asking for a gas tax. You’re calling for millions of people to lose their employment, migrate hundreds of miles to search for urban work, and become homeless.

There are other ways. However, they all require democracy and rule of law, or the game is finished anyway.
 
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Brenda Archer

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Well, yeah that's all true Beebo. It's just frustrating reading that 30% of the population are big Trump supporters when he is so evil. They seem to have so much hate. I don't understand their motivation well. I wish I had a better understanding. He doesn't do anything good for them economically or any other way that i know of.
It’s religion. I’m not sorry if that offends some people. Very few of the Trump supporters come from the pseudo intellectual online Right that the media makes so much of. Most of them are in conservative religions that now, or recently, have supported overt racist and misogynistic positions.

Trump is surrounded by these people.

It’s easy once your religion breaks with scientific realism and even mainstream Christianity to become a cult and shut out the opinions of the outside world. Even people in professional positions are capable of this.
 
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Beebo Brink

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"Their kind", white protestant christian conservatives, are already a numerical minority, and becoming more so every year. If you look at demographics by age, even their children are abandoning conservative christianity. Not all the young people, of course, but a lot of them. What they fear is losing power and becoming irrelevant.
That's definitely part of it, but it's not all of it. Whether or not they lose power (they will), conservatives by their own nature are not comfortable with change and they find comfort in a highly structured hierarchical system of authority. Society is changing ever faster, which itself is uncomfortable. Society is becoming more diverse and people are finding new technological channels of communication that weakens central authority, which is downright alarming. What liberals see as progress, conservatives see as chaos and danger.
 

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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Nope. I’m not going to be backed into a position where poor people get blamed for the decisions of oligarchs.

If we don’t include social justice in action on the climate, it won’t happen anyway, because either social disorder or demagoguery will destroy the ability of the state to do any good.

You’re assuming a powerful state with democratic traditions. It’s not at all clear we have one here.

You are also still not understanding the size of our population in remote regions. You’re not just asking for a gas tax. You’re calling for millions of people to lose their employment, migrate hundreds of miles to search for urban work, and become homeless.

There are other ways. However, they all require democracy and rule of law, or the game is finished anyway.
This type of argument is exactly what has always been used to delay any attempt in many countries since like... ever. And now since it becomes more and more visible day by day to where this path has lead as so far you still do insist that this is a good idea?

I am not asking to introduce a gas tax; what I was talking about is a carbon tax, which has a much wider area it affects: it should be charged on anything causing carbon emissions, so not only combustion engine vehicles, but also heating units in buildings, air planes, electrical power and so on and on in such a way that it makes people rethink their way of life and start to change it. It also needs to be applied to the industry as well.

This needs to be embedded using the right methods, yes. It also needs to be implemented in such a way that it won't hurt you from the start, but that you feel it from the beginning, with a clear progression path lead into the future so that you can plan about it.

Talking about rural regions: Sweden has an area of roughly 450.000 square kilometres and a population of est. 10 million people, or in average 23 people/km2. So this means that it has got tons of rural areas where people do live in.

It has also introduced such a tax in 1991 - and as far as I know it did not hurt their wealthiness, unemployment rates or GDP development. I am pretty convinced that America is able to repeat this Swedish model if it wants to.
 

Beebo Brink

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Talking about rural regions: Sweden has an area of roughly 450.000 square kilometres and a population of est. 10 million people, or in average 23 people/km2. So this means that it has got tons of rural areas where people do live in.
Let's put this in perspective:

Sweden: 450,000 km²
U.S.: 9.834 million km²

Sweden: population of 10 million people
U.S. (all): population of 327.2 million people
U.S. rural areas: population of 52.3 million people

Sweden: 23 people/km²
U.S. average: 92.6 people/km²
U.S. rural areas: 2 people/km²

The average people/km² figure doesn't really tell the full story. 84% of the United States' inhabitants live in suburban and urban areas, but those cities occupy only 10 percent of the country. Rural areas (villages) occupy the remaining 90 percent. So the population density of rural areas is significantly lower -- roughly 2 people per km² -- and much more difficult to reach with basic services such as medical care, education and especially tech innovations such as the internet. Sometimes even phone service.

So our rural areas alone have more than 5 times the entire population of Sweden, at a fraction of the land density.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Let's put this in perspective:

Sweden: 450,000 km²
U.S.: 9.834 million km²

Sweden: population of 10 million people
U.S. (all): population of 327.2 million people
U.S. rural areas: population of 52.3 million people

Sweden: 23 people/km²
U.S. average: 92.6 people/km²
U.S. rural areas: 2 people/km²

The average people/km² figure doesn't really tell the full story. 84% of the United States' inhabitants live in suburban and urban areas, but those cities occupy only 10 percent of the country. Rural areas (villages) occupy the remaining 90 percent. So the population density of rural areas is significantly lower -- roughly 2 people per km² -- and much more difficult to reach with basic services such as medical care, education and especially tech innovations such as the internet. Sometimes even phone service.

So our rural areas alone have more than 5 times the entire population of Sweden, at a fraction of the land density.
While I see the problems, and I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of people living in these rural areas, is not reasonable to ask what sacrifices others should be expected to make so that they can sustain a lifestyle that's not economically viable? (I was going to use the phrase "enjoy a lifestyle" but, of course, many people in those areas are really struggling, so I doubt they're enjoying it much).

How about offering residents of those areas generous relocation packages, on the basis that, if they don't want to take them, they're on their own?