Brexit.

Kara Spengler

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Okay........ and thanks.

I will make that mistake most likely again in the future, I guess. If the spell checker doesn't ring the alarm bell, I'll think it's okay.
Than and then, to and too are in the same league for me.
No problem, just about every computer I use is not quite sure if it should recommend British or American spellings to me. So a large percentage of the time I have to ignore red underlined words and trust my internal dictionary.
 
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Kara Spengler

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This thread is worth a read to help understand what happens when the EU makes deals, how long it takes, what the steps are and where the time is spent.

Just imagine the chaos when people decide to reapply to the EU! Especially when they find out how long it will take and the fact that they will not get the same good terms as they now enjoy.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Very true, and an interesting comparision


It's sometimes very annoying to see crackpot legal theories advanced on air by politicians and reported more or less uncritically by reporters when there's a huge corpus of readily accessible legal analysis available online, through respected legal commentators and independent academic bodies, written for a non-professional audience, explaining why the latest cunning legal wheeze being briefed by Downing Street is so much twaddle.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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The problem is they are juggling hand grenades. If bojo does not sign it on the 19th (which there is good reason to suspect he will not do) there is not much time to go to plan B. Sorry, but it still does not make much sense to me to waste the 20th.
Barring something utterly unforeseen, a request for an extension will be signed and submitted no later than some time on the afternoon of the 21st, whatever happens.

In the event the government appeal to the Supreme Court and the Supremes agree to hear the appeal (the outcome of which would be a foregone conclusion), the Supreme Court is holding open Friday 25th, Monday 28th and Wednesday 30th, but even then I don't see what a Sunday sitting would achieve.

Case #1: The Scottish court is informed on Monday 21st that the issue is now resolved because Parliament has accepted a Withdrawal Agreement approved by the EU, or that Parliament has consented to a no-deal Brexit, or that Johnson has complied with his legal obligations and the binding undertakings he gave the court through the government law officers.

Case #2: The court is informed that, for some reason, Johnson has failed to comply with the law and has broken his promises to the court. The court signs the letter and visits appropriate penalties on Johnson and his law officers (by this time, they and several senior members of the cabinet will have resigned, I am sure) and events take their course.

Why does it matter if all that happens on the Sunday rather than the Monday?

I just don't see what you say is the importance of those 24 hours -- what, of any significance, can happen if the hearing is held on the Sunday that can't just as well happen on the Monday?
 

Kara Spengler

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Barring something utterly unforeseen, a request for an extension will be signed and submitted no later than some time on the afternoon of the 21st, whatever happens.

In the event the government appeal to the Supreme Court and the Supremes agree to hear the appeal (the outcome of which would be a foregone conclusion), the Supreme Court is holding open Friday 25th, Monday 28th and Wednesday 30th, but even then I don't see what a Sunday sitting would achieve.

Case #1: The Scottish court is informed on Monday 21st that the issue is now resolved because Parliament has accepted a Withdrawal Agreement approved by the EU, or that Parliament has consented to a no-deal Brexit, or that Johnson has complied with his legal obligations and the binding undertakings he gave the court through the government law officers.

Case #2: The court is informed that, for some reason, Johnson has failed to comply with the law and has broken his promises to the court. The court signs the letter and visits appropriate penalties on Johnson and his law officers (by this time, they and several senior members of the cabinet will have resigned, I am sure) and events take their course.

Why does it matter if all that happens on the Sunday rather than the Monday?

I just don't see what you say is the importance of those 24 hours -- what, of any significance, can happen if the hearing is held on the Sunday that can't just as well happen on the Monday?
Sorry, but when I plan I plan contingencies for worst case scenarios. It is precisely because nobody knows what could go wrong that getting the process started a day later seems, well, a waste, to me. What if the UK crashes out on the 31st and 24 more hours would have made all the difference between that and an extension?
 

Innula Zenovka

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Sorry, but when I plan I plan contingencies for worst case scenarios. It is precisely because nobody knows what could go wrong that getting the process started a day later seems, well, a waste, to me. What if the UK crashes out on the 31st and 24 more hours would have made all the difference between that and an extension?
Please explain to me a plausible worst case scenario in which it would make any difference whether the court sat on the Sunday or the Monday.
 

Sid

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It is that "no worries, still time enough" attitude everyone in the UK, who is involved with the Brexit in some way, seems to have as if giving the EU some time to think and discuss is not important at all. Tick, tack, tick, tack, tick, tack..... before you know it is Happy Creepy Halloween!.
 

Kara Spengler

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Please explain to me a plausible worst case scenario in which it would make any difference whether the court sat on the Sunday or the Monday.
How about a key person has a heart attack at the last minute on Monday and they lose time getting the document to their deputy (and then even more if they are not officially able to sign things like that yet)?

Is it likely? No. However I deal in a field where things that are vexing and unforeseen happen all the time. We never assume Murphy is taking a holiday. To me doing something a day late when you are on a critical path makes no sense at all.
 

Innula Zenovka

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How about a key person has a heart attack at the last minute on Monday and they lose time getting the document to their deputy (and then even more if they are not officially able to sign things like that yet)?

Is it likely? No. However I deal in a field where things that are vexing and unforeseen happen all the time. We never assume Murphy is taking a holiday. To me doing something a day late when you are on a critical path makes no sense at all.
No, the key person is the Lord President, and his deputy, the Lord Clerk, will be sitting with him, so if he is so enraged by Johnson's failure to submit the request that he has an apoplectic fit, she'll be available to take over.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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It is that "no worries, still time enough" attitude everyone in the UK, who is involved with the Brexit in some way, seems to have as if giving the EU some time to think and discuss is not important at all. Tick, tack, tick, tack, tick, tack..... before you know it is Happy Creepy Halloween!.
The EU already know what's going to be in the letter, since the wording is contained in a schedule at the end of the "Benn Act" (aka European Union (Withdrawal) (Number 2) Act):

“Dear Mr President,

The UK Parliament has passed the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019. Its provisions now require Her Majesty's Government to seek an extension of the period provided under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union, including as applied by Article 106a of the Euratom Treaty, currently due to expire at 11.00pm GMT on 31 October 2019, until 11.00pm GMT on 31 January 2020.

I am writing therefore to inform the European Council that the United Kingdom is seeking a further extension to the period provided under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union, including as applied by Article 106a of the Euratom Treaty. The United Kingdom proposes that this period should end at 11.00pm GMT on 31 January 2020. If the parties are able to ratify before this date, the Government proposes that the period should be terminated early.

Yours sincerely,

Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”
The European Council meet on October 17 and 18 to discuss their response to whatever proposals the UK bring them.

Parliament will (very unusually) sit on Saturday 19th, to vote on whatever emerges from the Council meeting -- to approve a Withdrawal Agreement if there is one, or a no-deal Brexit.

If they don't approve either of those options on the 19th, then the Benn Act requires Johnson to submit the letter quoted above, so the first time he can do that is sometime late on Saturday or during Sunday 20th.

The Scottish court meets on the Monday morning to be advised about what's happened over the weekend, and to use their powers, if necessary, to send the letter on his behalf.

I honestly don't see how it would help the EU27 to receive the formal request on Sunday afternoon rather than Monday afternoon -- I would imagine they'll have a response ready to be sent of as soon they receive the request.
 
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Kara Spengler

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No, the key person is the Lord President, and his deputy, the Lord Clerk, will be sitting with him, so if he is so enraged by Johnson's failure to submit the request that he has an apoplectic fit, she'll be available to take over.
Touche on that one but you get what I mean I hope? Expect the unexpected always. There is a reason the tech industry tries to avoid doing things on a Friday: we know there is a higher chance of Murphy not having anything better to do and telling everyone who wanted to sit back with their e-toys for the weekend that you broke the internet does not make for a good time for the people that drew the short straws. At least during the week we are fully staffed for handling issues like that.

If nothing happens, great, you at least show people you are doing all you can in the face of obstruction.
 
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