Brexit.

Kara Spengler

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Whups, yeah, blame it on a late night.
 

Da5id Weatherwax

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I've been wondering about this, though.

I mean, one of the primary objections to a no-deal Brexit is that it would involve a hard border between the RoI and NI.

Presumably if an independent Scotland sought to join the EU after a no-deal Brexit, that would involve a similar hard border between England and Scotland, which is a bit hard to imagine working any better than one in Ireland.
This is true - but if there's already been a no-deal exit the situation has already changed.

If a no-deal brexit doesn't happen I am honestly doubtful that the situation will push Scotland over the edge into independence. But if no-deal does happen I am equally doubtful that anything Westminster can do will prevent public opinion here passing that tipping point.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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This is true - but if there's already been a no-deal exit the situation has already changed.

If a no-deal brexit doesn't happen I am honestly doubtful that the situation will push Scotland over the edge into independence. But if no-deal does happen I am equally doubtful that anything Westminster can do will prevent public opinion here passing that tipping point.
Regardless of public opinion, I still don't see how customs checks between England and Scotland would work.

Why is it any more practicable than HMG's schemes for resolving the RoI-NI border issue? Wouldn't English and Scottish farmers, manufacturers and businesses face exactly the same problems that are proving so intractable the other side of the Irish Sea/St George's Channel?
 
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But but but BoJo wants to sell haggis to America sooo much! How dare the Scotsmen to leave then!!1!

I know if I was in charge of US trade negotiations, I might consider even subsidizing each package of haggis and each shower tray with $1.00.
 

Da5id Weatherwax

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Regardless of public opinion, I still don't see how customs checks between England and Scotland would work.

Why is it any more practicable than HMG's schemes for resolving the RoI-NI border issue? Wouldn't English and Scottish farmers, manufacturers and businesses face exactly the same problems that are proving so intractable the other side of the Irish Sea/St George's Channel?
They almost certainly would. I didn't say the process would be pretty. But if folks are already dealing with a land border with the EU in a no-deal situation I don't see a threat of additional border issues from having a section of that border on the British mainland carrying much weight.

It's not a stretch of the imagination to hear Scots politicians saying "You're saying how successful you've been with the Irish border. Which means the only reason for you to be talking up problems for us is that you're being a bunch of arseholes about it. This is just Westminster screwing us over again!"
 
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Innula Zenovka

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They almost certainly would. I didn't say the process would be pretty. But if folks are already dealing with a land border with the EU in a no-deal situation I don't see a threat of additional border issues from having a section of that border on the British mainland carrying much weight.

It's not a stretch of the imagination to hear Scots politicians saying "You're saying how successful you've been with the Irish border. Which means the only reason for you to be talking up problems for us is that you're being a bunch of arseholes about it. This is just Westminster screwing us over again!"
Unless somehow Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg are right about how trivial an issue the Irish border is and everyone else is mistaken, I can also imagine the reaction to such statements.

It's not Westminster who would be insisting on the border, after all -- it would be a logical consequence of having Scotland part of the EU's single market and customs union and England and Wales outside it.
 

Tigger

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I've been wondering about this, though.

I mean, one of the primary objections to a no-deal Brexit is that it would involve a hard border between the RoI and NI.

Presumably if an independent Scotland sought to join the EU after a no-deal Brexit, that would involve a similar hard border between England and Scotland, which is a bit hard to imagine working any better than one in Ireland.
The issue with the Irish border is the issue of "the troubles" and the causes of the troubles. Which is primarily one of identity. Many in NI identify as Irish and many as British. The EU allowed both to live their identity without having to think too hard about the reality of the situation. Removing the EU means putting a border back which means the identity issue comes back as does the violence.

I don't see that issue in a border between Scotland and England.
 

Sid

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Bartholomew Gallacher

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You seem to be forgetting one major issue: if the UK leaves the EU this means that Scotland would most certainly leave the EU with it. Why? Because a new independency referendum is not being organised so easily; crashing out of the EU at the moment is far more easy and as long as Scotland belongs to the UK that's the way it is.

Then let's have the Scottish people their referendum, and let's say they become independent. This means that on the island there are suddenly to neighbouring countries (like in the past), which are not part of the EU and therefore can bilaterally negotiate like the border should be treated as they wish.

Scotland then of course is free to apply for EU membership. If it becomes a EU member, then England and Wales are having a border to the EU to their north.
 

Casey Pelous

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Dogging is the slang term for having sex with strangers or watching others do so in public. ...

The fearful minister, who believes those delays on transport links to Dover will lead to a rise in the activity, is concerned about bored British truckers.

“Do Europeans even do dogging?" he added.

"There is something deeply British about dogging.”
- Anonymous cabinet member.​

:LOL:
 
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Kara Spengler

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The issue with the Irish border is the issue of "the troubles" and the causes of the troubles. Which is primarily one of identity. Many in NI identify as Irish and many as British. The EU allowed both to live their identity without having to think too hard about the reality of the situation. Removing the EU means putting a border back which means the identity issue comes back as does the violence.

I don't see that issue in a border between Scotland and England.
Yes, I do not see it as 'just' a matter of if a land border is there or not. That will make it harder than a sea border but the reason NI is hard is just what you identified and that does not exist in Scotland.
 

Kara Spengler

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- Anonymous cabinet member.​

:LOL:
Sounds like that minister is about to get a grattis lesson from the internet about how much humans have liasons with strangers.
 

Innula Zenovka

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The issue with the Irish border is the issue of "the troubles" and the causes of the troubles. Which is primarily one of identity. Many in NI identify as Irish and many as British. The EU allowed both to live their identity without having to think too hard about the reality of the situation. Removing the EU means putting a border back which means the identity issue comes back as does the violence.

I don't see that issue in a border between Scotland and England.
No, I really think you're misunderstanding the nature of the problem with the Irish Border.

Quite apart from the very real risk of restarting the violence, there's the simple logistical problem of having two separate customs regimes and product standards for foodstuffs and goods.

That is unavoidable. What effect do you think border checks are going to have on moving cattle between England and Scotland? How is Scotland going to collect tariffs on goods coming from England if they're subject to EU import duties?

It would be a complete nightmare.
 
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No, I really think you're misunderstanding the nature of the problem with the Irish Border.

Quite apart from the very real risk of restarting the violence, there's the simple logistical problem of having two separate customs regimes and product standards for foodstuffs and goods.

That is unavoidable. What effect do you think border checks are going to have on moving cattle between England and Scotland? How is Scotland going to collect tariffs on goods coming from England if they're subject to EU import duties?

It would be a complete nightmare.
How do other countries that border non-EU countries do it?

I don't know if this will push Scotland over the edge but it's always been fairly close and a huge part of staying in the UK was being told we'd feck up the economy and have to leave the EU. Which is happening anyway now. Plus the fact that Scotland voted to remain just once again highlights the fact that Scotland doesn't really matter when the rest of the UK vote differently.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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How do other countries that border non-EU countries do it?

I don't know if this will push Scotland over the edge but it's always been fairly close and a huge part of staying in the UK was being told we'd feck up the economy and have to leave the EU. Which is happening anyway now. Plus the fact that Scotland voted to remain just once again highlights the fact that Scotland doesn't really matter when the rest of the UK vote differently.
Other countries bordering the EU are part of the European Economic Area, which involves being part of a customs union, and that's a very sensible thing to be if you're not part of the EU.

However, the present Government don't see it that way, and don't want to be part of that at all.

That's why there's such a huge issue with the NI border -- if the UK were prepared to remain in the Customs Union or, better still, the Single Market, then there would be no NI border issue and neither would there be Scottish border issue if Scotland were to become independent.
 
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