Brexit.

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Some recent advise from the Donnie:

 

[Tigger]

Now in the case of Mister Garrett there, I've found in the event someone drops an "Educate yourselves!" at the end of a tweet it's often some sort of Trumptard/Bexit Taliban, or Russian. I had a look at the account itself and didn't on the surface appear to be any of that. So I googled "is an MP a Delegate or a Representative?", and I think I got my head around what the difference between the two is, but when I got into the British explainers, my eyes would go buggy at around the fifth paragraph of preamble.

So I think I'll just ask Innula Zenovka.

People just have no clue how our system works. Not the slightest. I don't think it's ever covered in school, at least it never was in mine, and it's not something that you are going to just absorb over time. If you do not go out of your way to educate yourself you will never know.

 

[Ariane]

So, there will be no third "meaningful" vote for the Negotiated Agreement. That means that the only way the negotiated agreement passes is if it is put on a second referendum, and since votes to take No Deal off the table forever have already passed, it is possible this mess can be soon over.

 

[Porsupah Ree]

Some pertinent tidbits at the end here:

May could still hold another vote on her deal, says Brexit secretary

Barclay's indicating that, remarkably, they accept that no-deal has been taken off the table. I'd still be wary of the ERG managing to pull some stunt, but just possibly he means it.

It also notes Corbyn's meeting with two groups of MPs, one to discuss backing for a referendum, and another to talk about a Norway arrangement.

 

[Tigger]

Meanwhile Liam Fox is claiming to have signed trade deals (with Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein), unfortunately at least one of the countries involved has thrown cold water over that idea.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

So I skimmed down the thread and found this:

Now in the case of Mister Garrett there, I've found in the event someone drops an "Educate yourselves!" at the end of a tweet it's often some sort of Trumptard/Bexit Taliban, or Russian. I had a look at the account itself and didn't on the surface appear to be any of that. So I googled "is an MP a Delegate or a Representative?", and I think I got my head around what the difference between the two is, but when I got into the British explainers, my eyes would go buggy at around the fifth paragraph of preamble.

So I think I'll just ask Innula Zenovka.

Simple answer is that they are most certainly not delegates. I keep on posting this, but it is often quoted as the classic explanation of the MP's role:

Certainly, gentlemen, it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

My worthy colleague says, his will ought to be subservient to yours. If that be all, the thing is innocent. If government were a matter of will upon any side, yours, without question, ought to be superior. But government and legislation are matters of reason and judgment, and not of inclination; and what sort of reason is that, in which the determination precedes the discussion; in which one set of men deliberate, and another decide; and where those who form the conclusion are perhaps three hundred miles distant from those who hear the arguments?

To deliver an opinion, is the right of all men; that of constituents is a weighty and respectable opinion, which a representative ought always to rejoice to hear; and which he ought always most seriously to consider. But authoritative instructions; mandates issued, which the member is bound blindly and implicitly to obey, to vote, and to argue for, though contrary to the clearest conviction of his judgment and conscience,--these are things utterly unknown to the laws of this land, and which arise from a fundamental mistake of the whole order and tenor of our constitution.

Parliament is not a congress of ambassadors from different and hostile interests; which interests each must maintain, as an agent and advocate, against other agents and advocates; but parliament is a deliberative assembly of one nation, with one interest, that of the whole; where, not local purposes, not local prejudices, ought to guide, but the general good, resulting from the general reason of the whole. You choose a member indeed; but when you have chosen him, he is not member of Bristol, but he is a member of parliament. If the local constituent should have an interest, or should form an hasty opinion, evidently opposite to the real good of the rest of the community, the member for that place ought to be as far, as any other, from any endeavour to give it effect. I beg pardon for saying so much on this subject. I have been unwillingly drawn into it; but I shall ever use a respectful frankness of communication with you. Your faithful friend, your devoted servant, I shall be to the end of my life: a flatterer you do not wish for.

Representation: Edmund Burke, Speech to the Electors of Bristol

The MP's local party branch may, depending on the party's constitution, attempt to bind him or her to vote in a particular way, under threat of deselection -- that is, choosing a different candidate to support as the official Labour or Conservative candidate in the election -- and the MP's parliamentary party may, in extreme cases, choose to expel him or her for refusing to vote as the party whips direct.

But in neither case does the MP cease to be the duly elected MP for the constituency and can stay on at least until the next election, when it's open to him or her to run for re-election, either for a different party or as an independent.

The only constitutional way to make a referendum in the UK binding is to do what we've done in previous referendums (e.g. proportional representation and devolved government for Scotland and Wales) and pass the detailed legislation first, with a clause stipulating that before coming into force it must be ratified by a referendum, and, if desired, by at least a particular percentage of the voters and/or with a turn out of at least a particular percentage of the eligible electorate.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

IMHO a much simpler, rough explanation could be this:

Delegate: somebody announced to achieve a certain task with limited space of negotiation/freedom, e.g. negotiating a deal. Example: Michael Barnier, who negotiated May's Brexit deal on the EU side.

Representative: somebody representing a certain constituency/group/entity, but given absolutely freedom in his decisions to do what he thinks is best on his own judgement/experience/before his own conscience.

 

[Da5id Weatherwax]

People just have no clue how our system works. Not the slightest. I don't think it's ever covered in school, at least it never was in mine, and it's not something that you are going to just absorb over time. If you do not go out of your way to educate yourself you will never know.

We should probably, in fairness, note that in just about ANY country, a genuine awareness of how the system actually works, as opposed to "it's supposed to work in my favor and let me do what I want!" is usually a minority situation amongst its own native-born citizens. I've lived in several countries other than the UK, the longest of these times being in the USA and I could pretty much guarantee that I knew exactly what was in their Constitution and its amendments better than any native-born American I spoke to who wasn't a jurist of some description. It was this experience of "knowing their system better than most folks born there" that made me make damn sure that I fixed this gap where my knowledge of the UK system that I was born under was concerned. Folks tend not to look too closely at things that are "just the way it is" whereas they do when things around them are (even slightly) "different"

 

[OrinB]

The thing is, believe it or not, that Bercow is quite a controversal figure; and one of the few who might not get a pension (or whatever the proper word is) for his time being speaker when it ends. There were and are many MPs for docking his pay and pension; also the Times demanded his retirement as well not so long ago.

I don't have a problem with his comments. I agree with them. My point was that everyone keeps wanting referenDUMBs to clear up this mess when it's one of them that got us into this mess. It's referenDUMBs that make a joke out of our democracy not hundreds of years of daily parliamentary protocol.

 

[Chav Paderborn]

Referenda are a bad idea when it's a complex topic, because most of the voters are going to be uneducated on the issue. When we voted on Scottish independence I'm not sure how many of us had really thought it through (me included, I mostly wanted away from Tory governments) but at least in that case the only way to fairly decide on independence is to ask the people it'll affect. Leaving the EU or not is not really the thing we should be voting on, because it's economically complex and far too easy for us all to get focussed on things like immigration at the expense of everything else. But it wasn't a legally-binding vote, as much as parliament seems to be acting like it was.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

We should probably, in fairness, note that in just about ANY country, a genuine awareness of how the system actually works, as opposed to "it's supposed to work in my favor and let me do what I want!" is usually a minority situation amongst its own native-born citizens. I've lived in several countries other than the UK, the longest of these times being in the USA and I could pretty much guarantee that I knew exactly what was in their Constitution and its amendments better than any native-born American I spoke to who wasn't a jurist of some description. It was this experience of "knowing their system better than most folks born there" that made me make damn sure that I fixed this gap where my knowledge of the UK system that I was born under was concerned. Folks tend not to look too closely at things that are "just the way it is" whereas they do when things around them are (even slightly) "different"

This is why I think that elected officials should need to pass a civics exam. I apparently know their jobs better than they do, or at least know their constituents don't know their jobs. Case in point, blaming presidents for stuff that is Legislative, or being unaware that Congress doesn't work for the President [though at least one GOP congresscritter referred to him as their boss]. I'll be honest, I don't know the most recent changes to other government systems, and I don't even know what all the countries are anymore, even though I was good at that stuff in school, but I consider it a responsibility to at least know how my own government works. I mostly fail, but I try.

 

[Luisa Land]

why all this uproar?

Please remember and "let me be clear"::
Theresa May stands for a
Strong and stable leadership

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Flow chart showing decision-making processes leading to various possible outcomes for Brexit, along with estimated likelihoods:

From Brexit - where now? The flow diagrams - Jon Worth Euroblog (where there's a higher-resolution image).

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

why all this uproar?

Please remember
Theresa May stands for a
Strong and stable leadership

Is that like being a stable genius?

 

[OrinB]

But it wasn't a legally-binding vote, as much as parliament seems to be acting like it was.

EXACTLY! And all the more reason why Theresa May has managed to upset so many people by capitulating to her hard right disaster mongering colleagues.

Not that any other member of Parliament has had the guts to challenge this within the letter of parliamentary protocol and Erskine May.

 

[Chav Paderborn]

"Strong leadership" just sounds like something a fascist would be into.

 

[Khamon]

"Strong leadership" just sounds like something a fascist would be into.

"Strong leadership" is being demonstrated by Bercow using the Speaker's authority to do what is best for everyone without cowering under the fear that guarding the interests of the citizens of the United Kingdom might affect his political career. The PM, and most of the MPs, are demonstrating the latter to the obvious detriment of the economic stability of the country. And the really sad thing about it all is that the people that they're not representing don't seem to care.

edit: grammar

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Is that like being a stable genius?

This aged well.

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Simple answer is that they are most certainly not delegates.

*Snip

Representation: Edmund Burke, Speech to the Electors of Bristol

Thanks for that, and I see Mister Burke managed it in four paragraphs of amble.

Clowning aside, I was faced with two opposite claims, one of them followed the patterns of a modern disinformation post, and had trouble verifying. Surprisingly, or not, the one with the disinformation odour (new term for forceful and obnoxious?) was wrong.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The problem is that, even though MPs are not delegates and the referendum was not binding, all the main parties promised, both before and after the referendum, and in their election manifestos in 2017, to respect the referendum result.

So while MPs certainly aren't bound to vote as did their constituents in the referendum, both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will need to do a bit of rowing back to justify changing their positions on this matter. Furthermore, some MPs find themselves worried -- whether because they don't want to go back on commitments they've made or because they're worried about their local party's reaction and that of their constituents -- about reneging on their promises.

Furthermore, since Theresa May will be standing down as PM sooner rather than later, and since the Conservative Party's procedure for selecting a new leader gives the final decision to the local Conservative Associations (who are almost all fanatically pro-Brexit) if there's more than candidate, Conservatives who seek to be the next PM (though why one earth anyone would want the job right now is a mystery) daren't disavow the damn thing right now.