2020 Democratic Primary

[Brenda Archer]

I'll vote downballot blue locally and for the least harm if that's what it comes to. But to save myself spam mailers and dingbats begging money from me, and the idea that somehow I'm obligated to vote for neoliberal trash? My vote is a transaction. I'll register strategically if I have to, but this is not my party home. I have no home, it seems.

I still don’t really understand. I’m not in a position to give money to campaigns or pay much attention to mailing lists, but that’s not what I’m talking about here.

Is there a third party you support running candidates locally? If not, then you don’t have a political home, and that’s true for most of us. This is where local activism comes into play, and support for local candidates.

We can’t do all the changes we want from the top down. We don’t have a national level Left organization of significance. What normally happens is either changes get pushed through by activists working with major party people, or they happen locally as activism changes the culture in a state, then spread from there.

But not voting for Democrats in races where the viable opponent is part of the extreme Right doesn’t help anybody, it just helps to dismantle the center-right Democrat firewall against what has become a powerful, extremist Right.

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm not well versed in such things and I don't want to have to ask my nephew, who is into WoW -- DKP, I gather, are Dragon Kill Points, but after that... getting out of Innula's way when she's annoyed (always a prudent move) costs DKP?

DKP was an older system for allotting gear drops in a raid or a guild. I’m not sure about how it was used in other games than WoW. It became a meme with the Onyxia Wipe video (extremely funny video of a raid leader swearing up a storm while his raid gets killed).

Further to Brenda's info, my usage was to say, "A poster loses credibility by ignoring the people (Innula) who are engaging the topics in good faith."

 

[Cristalle]

Welcome to the way progressive political parties work -- political parties, at least ones large enough to be more than mere vaniity projects and LARP, are always coalitions of people who disagree with each other but who nevertheless have enough common goals and values to be able to work together, though they're generally arguing about what their goals should be.

If the left wants to get its way, then the left has to join the party and work within it by persuading party members to back them, and by bringing in new members who back them, and start to take over enough of the party apparatus to be able to make policy. That's the way it works.

As to AOC, she's only been in Congress for 18 months, for heaven's sake. She and the rest of "the Squad" have made a remarkable amount of progress in the brief time they've been there, but it's going to take a lot more time, and a lot more of them, to achieve what they want.

I wasn't expecting miracles from her; this is not a new thing. This has been going on for a long time. If you look at the last video I posted with Lawrence O'Donnell, back before he had a show on MSDNC, he explained that power dynamic precisely. As a legislative staff member, he could ignore the left because they had nowhere to go. I hope that critical mass has come, that the movement has had enough of this and starts work with either a new party or allying with an existing party to give people like me a political home, centered on the General Welfare with pragmatic (not neoliberal pragmatism) solutions that work for the country.

 

[Cristalle]

I still don’t really understand. I’m not in a position to give money to campaigns or pay much attention to mailing lists, but that’s not what I’m talking about here.

Is there a third party you support running candidates locally? If not, then you don’t have a political home, and that’s true for most of us. This is where local activism comes into play, and support for local candidates.

We can’t do all the changes we want from the top down. We don’t have a national level Left organization of significance. What normally happens is either changes get pushed through by activists working with major party people, or they happen locally as activism changes the culture in a state, then spread from there.

But not voting for Democrats in races where the viable opponent is part of the extreme Right doesn’t help anybody, it just helps to dismantle the center-right Democrat firewall against what has become a powerful, extremist Right.

I have no problem giving bits of my disposable income to causes I care about. I do that already. At the local level, yes, I will help. But I will be more discriminating with my money. Everything is strategic, a transaction. I will do what I have to to achieve a better result. Like I said: downballot blue is generally not a problem. The real problem starts at the Congressional level, when I'm going to be forced to vote for a woman this year who does not believe in Medicare for All. She'll be okay on some issues but not others. Least harm.

 

[Brenda Archer]

I wasn't expecting miracles from her; this is not a new thing. This has been going on for a long time. If you look at the last video I posted with Lawrence O'Donnell, back before he had a show on MSDNC, he explained that power dynamic precisely. As a legislative staff member, he could ignore the left because they had nowhere to go. I hope that critical mass has come, that the movement has had enough of this and starts work with either a new party or allying with an existing party to give people like me a political home, centered on the General Welfare with pragmatic (not neoliberal pragmatism) solutions that work for the country.

This is what Dem-enter is all about. It’s really nothing more than the inevitable takeover of the party by younger* generations who are moving leftward as they experience economic and demographic changes. These changes are permanent, so the movement of younger generations leftward is also permanent.

We can expect corporate interests to fight against increases in taxation and regulation, but we can’t punish them by abstaining from politics, not voting, or letting Republican extremism get the upper hand. All that would do is cause business, and money, to flee the country. The opposition to the local is not local. It’s not even patriotic.

 

[Cristalle]

This is what Dem-enter is all about. It’s really nothing more than the inevitable takeover of the party by younger* generations who are moving leftward as they experience economic and demographic changes. These changes are permanent, so the movement of younger generations leftward is also permanent.

We can expect corporate interests to fight against increases in taxation and regulation, but we can’t punish them by abstaining from politics, not voting, or letting Republican extremism get the upper hand. All that would do is cause business, and money, to flee the country. The opposition to the local is not local. It’s not even patriotic.

It's probably a generational fight, but one that is going to lose until the link between money and politics is broken. But as long as party loyalists line up and then try to blame other voters, this isn't going to be a good relationship. It feels like an abusive spouse. The left needs to be willing to exercise a veto. As long as we get harangued about 'blue no matter who' then this dynamic will not change.

 

[Brenda Archer]

I have no problem giving bits of my disposable income to causes I care about. I do that already. At the local level, yes, I will help. But I will be more discriminating with my money. Everything is strategic, a transaction. I will do what I have to to achieve a better result. Like I said: downballot blue is generally not a problem. The real problem starts at the Congressional level, when I'm going to be forced to vote for a woman this year who does not believe in Medicare for All. She'll be okay on some issues but not others. Least harm.

When was politics ever anything but strategy?

I still don’t really understand. I *don’t expect* center-right Democrats to share my politics. I expect them to be self-absorbed, religionist, capitalist wealthy people far more aligned with the corporate world than people like me, formerly of the lower middle class. It’s really a wonder more of them aren’t simply Republicans. Some of them were.

But - voting for them is not agreement to their mistakes. They can be primaried. They can be outnumbered as the electorate moves leftward. They are susceptible to horse trading. There’s a lot more going on in this game than national level party politics.

 

[Cristalle]

When was politics ever anything but strategy?

I still don’t really understand. I *don’t expect* center-right Democrats to share my politics. I expect them to be self-absorbed, religionist, capitalist wealthy people far more aligned with the corporate world than people like me, formerly of the lower middle class. It’s really a wonder more of them aren’t simply Republicans. Some of them were.

But - voting for them is not agreement to their mistakes. They can be primaried. They can be outnumbered as the electorate moves leftward. They are susceptible to horse trading. There’s a lot more going on in this game than national level party politics.

It may not be actual agreement in principle but it's tacit agreement. Look at what the party backed in Texas by backing a guy who for all intents and purposes is a Republican, Henry Cuellar. Look at what they do when they back Dan Lipinski in Illinois. Once you give them your vote, you have no power until the next time they need your vote. Pledging your vote does not obligate them to do diddly for you. I could DemExit in four days. It would make me feel better, knowing that the social obligation is gone. All the arrogant people who think they don't need independents to win can go ahead and try. I owe them nothing. That's not a team I want to be a part of.

 

[Salome]

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm not well versed in such things and I don't want to have to ask my nephew, who is into WoW -- DKP, I gather, are Dragon Kill Points, but after that... getting out of Innula's way when she's annoyed (always a prudent move) costs DKP?

While there are multiple, newer systems now, DKP was the system used by hardcore WOW raiders to figure out who was the most reliable, solid choice to give loot when it dropped in raids (weekly event dungeons that can require 20-40 people working together to successfully complete). If you were a solid, reliable player who showed up every week and helped the team work out mechanics, etc, you were awarded points. This assured that the people doing the most work to help the group progress together got first pick at gear, which would make the group as a whole stronger.

All too often, however, several people who did little work and only showed up occasionally would throw temper tantrums and bring the group down or fracture it because they felt entitled to jump to the front of the line.

So it’s an apt metaphor in multiple ways.

 

[Brenda Archer]

It's probably a generational fight, but one that is going to lose until the link between money and politics is broken. But as long as party loyalists line up and then try to blame other voters, this isn't going to be a good relationship. It feels like an abusive spouse. The left needs to be willing to exercise a veto. As long as we get harangued about 'blue no matter who' then this dynamic will not change.

Maybe this is the part where we disagree - I don’t believe we are doomed to lose. One of the things we will want to reverse is Citizens United, and other ways money is distorting politics - to the degree that we can. But this is a process, it’s going to take some work, and if it doesn’t happen, activists should still not give up.

Demographics are going to be more powerful than money driven propaganda in the long run.

The Left does not have a veto in a two party system. We can primary politicians, and we can sue when egregious problems occur, and engage in activism. But we can’t create a veto by allowing the extreme Right to win elections.

This isn’t all party loyalty. A lot of the people making this argument are far more about stopping fascism than “loyalty” to the Democrats.

Considering that the Democrats don’t even have much of a ground game in a lot of counties, what would a punishment vote even look like? I can only vote for the politicians that exist.

We can get more done on the local level by entering into coalition with the center-left, and this is going to be true for a while.

 

[Salome]

Bit of selective use of sources going on there, I think.

That’s because selective nonsense and ignoring everyone but themselves is all they have. No compromise will ever be good enough. The only thing sacrosanct to them is their misanthropy. That’s why they’ll embrace whatever conspiracy validates the choice they decided on from the beginning while ignoring the incredibly real threats of hostile foreign propaganda campaigns and vote tampering attempts.

There is zero reason to believe Sanders is more electable than Biden vs Trump. All the polling shows them about even. But we know from *actual votes* that Biden is the preferred candidate. Rather than address Bernie’s glaring shortcomings, it’s got to be voter suppression or DNC rigging or a mainstream media conspiracy or some broad (usually racist) generalization. Or casting civil rights leaders as people with no integrity. You’d think the ridiculous sources they have to grasp at and th ridiculous things they have to assert would give them pause. But, no. What’s important isn’t actual progress or actual lives. What’s important is they get to feel special in their angst. Because some people never mentally advance beyond the selfish teenager stage of life.

There are tons of reasons for voters to prefer Biden over Bernie that have nothing to do with a corrupt system or whatever racist trope will be trotted out next. Two big ones that stand out to me are (1)empathy and (2)reliability. Bernie has no empathy. None. He doesn’t seem to care and doesn’t try to care. He just shouts and demands. Democrats don‘t like voting for strongman candidates and sociopaths. As for reliability, well, that difference is obvious. The idea that it requires a conspiracy instead of many very simple factors like these is why you’re better off talking to a brick.

Or, you know, trying to teach a piece of toast to use an iPhone.

 

[Brenda Archer]

It may not be actual agreement in principle but it's tacit agreement. Look at what the party backed in Texas by backing a guy who for all intents and purposes is a Republican, Henry Cuellar. Look at what they do when they back Dan Lipinski in Illinois. Once you give them your vote, you have no power until the next time they need your vote. Pledging your vote does not obligate them to do diddly for you. I could DemExit in four days. It would make me feel better, knowing that the social obligation is gone. All the arrogant people who think they don't need independents to win can go ahead and try. I owe them nothing. That's not a team I want to be a part of.

Welp. If you want to abstain from voting and let the extreme Right win elections, you’re of course free to do that.

But it’s not going to punish anyone who really needs to be punished. That’s what primaries are for.

Some counties will never vote for anyone but right wing religionists; people like me can’t even move there. It’s going to take more work and time than a few elections’ worth, to move the needle on Christofascism.

 

[Cristalle]

Welp. If you want to abstain from voting and let the extreme Right win elections, you’re of course free to do that.

But it’s not going to punish anyone who really needs to be punished. That’s what primaries are for.

Some counties will never vote for anyone but right wing religionists; people like me can’t even move there. It’s going to take more work and time than a few elections’ worth, to move the needle on Christofascism.

I've already explained what I'm going to do. Least harm, for now. If someone who would do a better job representing me needs my vote in a primary, I will enter strategically for it. But beyond that? They can go to hell.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

That's a lot of talk and assumptions. Why is one protest vote so threatening to you, especially if it doesn't mean anything? It must mean something because it sparks such rage in you.

I'm not a lone voice. That's your imagination. I'm outnumbered.

How long are progressives who want real social economic change supposed to be content with their seat on the back of the bus?

In one breath you say "you don't belong here", in the other breath you say " you owe us your vote."

In 2016, I joined a coalition in my very Blue State, to fire a shot across the bow of the Democratic Party using Jill Stein's candidacy. That coalition was lead by a white woman who has devoted her life to education and social work in the inner city of Baltimore. She grew up in the town I came from. Her mother was a friend of my mother's to her end. She was the first young woman in my town to date a black man and never lived the shunning down. I was shunned for different reasons. She was one of my College professors. She lead a a campus group to take over the ROTC building in protest of war. We've been good friends for a long time. She walks the walk.

I do what I can do. I've bucked the system in a lot of ways. I've given employment to a diverse group of people. I've taken the burden of people with pre-existing conditions on my company health plan when it wasn't in my financial interests. I've promoted and supported a host of causes and projects outside of the political arena - for free.

I've lost interest in Democratic masturbation and the kind of gratification, you seem to get, in merely winning political puppet races.

I'm really not all that fond of myself, and that has to do with life circumstances beyond my control, things I would never share with you.

You never have and never will know me.

You joined a coalition that someone else did all the work for? Then you list her accomplishments. Okay? You've taken people on your company plan that had pre-existing conditions? That was the law that wouldn't have existed if not for Obama, you know? You know, that centrist who never did anything worthwhile?

The fact that you have a company in which you think it is magnanimous to take on the "burden" of people with pre-existing conditions puts you square outside of those who have lost and have so much more to lose under Trump. It puts you square outside the experience of many people here. You may indulge your fantasies of "being above it all" and so much smarter than everyone else while having not much skin in the game, personally but you have NO right to dictate to others, to put others down as ignorant, uninformed, brainwashed by whomever (media, politicians, blah blah) because they have every right in the world to choose who they follow.

I will never know you, that is correct. I have no desire to be your friend. You see, I'm selective. I choose my friends carefully. They hold empathy for others above all, they are not full of themselves, they do not brag about doing things that any decent person would as though it absolves them of horrible choices which have a far greater effect upon a much larger group of people. Horrible choices which are abundantly clear here and now, yet you still stand by it.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

It may not be actual agreement in principle but it's tacit agreement. Look at what the party backed in Texas by backing a guy who for all intents and purposes is a Republican, Henry Cuellar. Look at what they do when they back Dan Lipinski in Illinois. Once you give them your vote, you have no power until the next time they need your vote. Pledging your vote does not obligate them to do diddly for you. I could DemExit in four days. It would make me feel better, knowing that the social obligation is gone. All the arrogant people who think they don't need independents to win can go ahead and try. I owe them nothing. That's not a team I want to be a part of.

And here we have it. Wah, I can't have my way so I'm going to take my toys and run away. I'm glad that you would feel better knowing your "social obligation" is gone. Here is the real world, we can't just shrug of our social obligation.

 

[Cristalle]

And here we have it. Wah, I can't have my way so I'm going to take my toys and run away.

Thanks for making it easy.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

Thanks for making it easy.

Right. My post pushed you to it. You weren't already headed that direction. Tell yourself what you want.

 

[Salome]

And here we have it. Wah, I can't have my way so I'm going to take my toys and run away.

This is literally all they ever have and all they ever want to have. All the posturing about giving a fuck about anyone or anything is just pretense. They will never care about vulnerable people as much as they hate mommy and daddy Democrat. They always reveal it for what it is. Always.

 

[Brenda Archer]

I've already explained what I'm going to do. Least harm, for now. If someone who would do a better job representing me needs my vote in a primary, I will enter strategically for it. But beyond that? They can go to hell.

I still really don’t understand what you think is being asked of you. If you vote for the least-worst candidate, that’s all most people can do. If I was healthier and richer, I’d be volunteering for Kelly and donating to him. But all I can actually do is sign his petition and vote by mail. I can try to persuade other people.

I’m party registered so I can vote in the primaries. It’s not “loyalty.” I haven’t joined an exclusive church.

Poll: Kelly opens up double-digit lead against McSally in Arizona Senate race

 

[Jolene Benoir]

This is literally all they ever have and all they ever want to have. All the posturing about giving a fuck about anyone or anything is just pretense. They will never care about vulnerable people as much as they hate mommy and daddy Democrat. They always reveal it for what it is. Always.

There is always the ever present "You made me do this". So what if so many people are hurt or even die (this was true even pre-pandemic as Trump, McConnell and the rest of that party chose to do its very best to break the back of the ACA).

Yes, it is pretense. Role play. I certainly didn't expect it of Cristalle, certainly of Bubblesort and Aeon, but here we are.