2020 Democratic Primary

[Beebo Brink]

Rewriting history is all they have since Trump’s horrible ineptitude and allowing the GOP to run unfettered has left so much blood on their hands. I imagine there’s no end of things they have to convince themselves to sleep at night.

Revisit this statement in about 3mos, when Trump's body count will be much much higher.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

Rewriting history is all they have since Trump’s horrible ineptitude and allowing the GOP to run unfettered has left so much blood on their hands. I imagine there’s no end of things they have to convince themselves to sleep at night.

I think it's ego investment. So much of their ego seems hellbent on standing out, differentiating themselves from the rest of us "sheeple" by making an entirely empty gesture; and that is exactly what it was, an empty gesture.

As Kam pointed out, it's hard to do the actual work on the ground. Organizing, canvassing, making calls to potential constituents, talking with your politicians, attending meetings such as City Council and other public events where your voice can be heard, etc... I'm guessing that despite his so-very earnest belief in Stein he didn't do a single one of those things. I bet he hasn't for Bernie, either. If making a third party viable in this country is the goal, where is the work being done by such people

So, again, rather than do the hard work he has a brilliant idea. "Let's just take over one of the parties". We can use their existing infrastructure. When that appears to be failing for the second time in a row, our little boy is indignant so he starts tossing out insults accusing others of not caring about others (which would be laughable if it wasn't so insulting), being stupid and uninformed, doing what others tell them to do and just not understanding how so very right he is, if only we all would just understand that.

We have others here who have an interest in third party candidates and I believe have actually done work to forward their goal. But, guess what? That person saw Trump and despite their location being a lock for HRC, voted HRC. Not our little hero who fancies himself the "one true voice". Despite the admittance that his state was not "safe" he did what narcissists and other people who have no sense of community do, he voted to puff his chest and act for his own ego rather than the good of the country and most especially, its people.

The writing was on the wall with Trump. There was no denying what kind of president he would make. The man has a history. A sordid, seedy, racist, vengeful, childish, ignorant and narcissistic history. To refuse to acknowledge that in the service of an ego and even more, now that not only was just how bad he would be predictable but has played itself out in real time and much worse than thought over the last four years while real, actual harm and injustices are being committed upon both citizens and non-citizens is to be devoid of conscience.

What the solution for a little king, in his mind? Double down. Deny, obfuscate facts, play the earnest little soldier on message boards where the denizens are not exactly welcoming such displays of ignorance. Praise yourself as being a lone voice in the wilderness, pass on Russian propaganda, insult the intelligence of every person who has to read the drivel and of course, play the victim, while denying the truth of the victims being created every day under Trump.

 

[Clara D.]

Angry, angry words from someone that once demanded we be nicer.

Maybe you and Bubblesort should get a room.

 

[Katheryne Helendale]

Yea, I know I'm crazy. It's all about following the herd and winning. Winning what?

As many times as you say it, my choice simply did not get you Trump. The people who voted for Trump, got you Trump. The people who voted for Clinton, got you second place. The people who didn't vote, got you nothing. The people who voted for Stein, got you a second chance at Medicare for All, The Green New Deal, College Debt forgiveness, and a host of other possibilities to make life better for people who need a better life. They couldn't be ignored. Sanders couldn't be ignored this time, not in the same way.

Were the masses begging for a second chance with Clinton? No way. She stood for nothing, but loss.

What are you doing with that second chance, now? You're following the herd and pissing it away. Again. You're being ignorant with such righteousness. It's all here, right in front of your face, and you are running full force to absolutely nothing.

It's interesting that you bring up a cactus. It grows in a place that barely sustains life. It's hollow and prickly. It's Joe Biden.

Yeah, dude. Whatever you've got to tell yourself so that you can sleep at night.

 

[Cristalle]

What do Joe Biden’s wins mean? Our panelists weigh in

“It is a surreal feeling seeing the Democratic party establishment celebrate their victories in tonight’s primaries when that victory all but ensures Donald Trump another four years. It’s a strange sensation seeing people in their righteous indignation and in their conviction align themselves with the wrong side of history.

“Why? Because they rejected Bernie Sanders?”

No. Because they rejected the hurting, the marginalized, and the left out. The progressive wing of the Democratic party is what it is because it fights for justice without ceasing. The progressive wing has not always gotten it right, but the mistakes were never because we wanted to maintain power at the expense of the powerless.

If we’re honest with each other, we don’t want the same things.
We want Medicare for All. You want to maintain a system that allows profiteers to exploit the sick and the dying for profits. We want to cancel student debt; you want to see your children work for the next 30 years to pay off a six-figure education that only cost you four figures.
We just don’t want the same things. We’ve outgrown each other. We’ve come to terms with the reality that we probably should go our separate ways.”

 

[Ryanna Enfield]

Yeah, because only Bernie supporters are rejected, hurting, marginalized and left out.

 

[Cristalle]

Yeah, because only Bernie supporters are rejected, hurting, marginalized and left out.

From a policy standpoint, yeah, we pretty much are.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

What do Joe Biden’s wins mean? Our panelists weigh in

Bit of selective use of sources going on there, I think.

The article contains the views of six panelists.

You chose to reproduce the views of one of them, Benjamin Dixon (who doesn't actually produce any evidence to support his contention that Sanders is the only person who can possibly defeat Trump, despite his and his administration's lamentable mishandling of the Covid-19 crisis, on top of everything else, but I get the impression that's now an article of faith among some people).

Let's see what some of the other panelists have to say, though. Malaika Jabali broadly agrees with Dixon, though she thinks Biden's campaign for the nomination is probably unstoppable (because the Democratic Party establishment has somehow hoodwinked the voters, though she doesn't explain how), but what of the others?

[*]Art Cullen: ‘Voters think Biden is most electable
[*]Katie Herzog: ‘Voters want a safe choice: they chose Biden’
[*]Lloyd Green: ‘The wind is in Biden’s back. Trump has reason to worry’
[*]Andrew Gawthrope: ‘Sanders must endorse Biden’

Why, other than that you share his faith, do you quote Dixon rather than, for example, Cullen?

Democratic voters in exit polls agree with Bernie Sanders on the issues. They favor universal healthcare. They don’t trust billionaires and think the system is rigged against average people. But they didn’t agree that the Vermont senator is their best bet to beat Donald Trump. The establishment didn’t lock Bernie out. Black voters across the south made the pragmatic decision that Joe Biden is the man to unseat the US president. A broad coalition of voters, from suburban women to white men without a college degree, took their cue from South Carolina and flocked around Biden. It was a flood on Tuesday. Florida and Georgia are ready to pile on the bandwagon.

Turnout is up across the nation, especially in Michigan, where Biden and not Sanders is the beneficiary. Democrats are declaring they cannot tolerate any more Trump. They believe Biden can manage a panic. The wave has laid Sanders asunder. The hope for the republic is that Sanders supporters can quickly come to terms with the urgency of throwing their support behind the presumptive nominee, Biden.

Or how about Gawthrope?

This is the beginning of the end for the campaign of Bernie Sanders. Facing losses among the sort of rural and white voters without college degrees who were behind his successes in the 2016 primary, his path to the nomination has narrowed to the point that it is imperceptible. Michigan, which he won in 2016 and lost this year, embodies this shift. The one group that Sanders still wins handily – young voters – do not vote in sufficient numbers to make up for his losses in the suburbs, in rural towns, and among white and black working-class voters.

Everyone’s attention should now turn to negotiating Sanders’ exit from the race in the way best calculated to defeat Donald Trump. Sanders has built a powerful and proud movement which will not just help Biden but also down-ballot progressive causes and candidates in November, if only it can be won over. Sanders will probably never run for president again and much of his legacy will be determined by the role he plays between now and November. Biden needs to show that he takes this movement seriously, and Sanders should respond by endorsing Biden speedily and campaigning for him with energy. It’s the best way to send Trump into retirement, and to keep the hopes of the progressive movement alive

What do Joe Biden’s wins mean? Our panelists weigh in

The former vice-president takes Michigan, Missouri, Mississippi and Idaho. What does this say about Democratic voters?

www.theguardian.com

 

[Shiloh Lyric]

Happy to see this!

 

[Cristalle]

Bit of selective use of sources going on there, I think.

The article contains the views of six panelists.

You chose to reproduce the views of one of them, Benjamin Dixon (who doesn't actually produce any evidence to support his contention that Sanders is the only person who can possibly defeat Trump, despite his and his administration's lamentable mishandling of the Covid-19 crisis, on top of everything else, but I get the impression that's now an article of faith among some people).

Let's see what some of the other panelists have to say, though. Malaika Jabali broadly agrees with Dixon, though she thinks Biden's campaign for the nomination is probably unstoppable (because the Democratic Party establishment has somehow hoodwinked the voters, though she doesn't explain how), but what of the others?

Why, other than that you share his faith, do you quote Dixon rather than, for example, Cullen?



Or how about Gawthrope?

What do Joe Biden’s wins mean? Our panelists weigh in

The former vice-president takes Michigan, Missouri, Mississippi and Idaho. What does this say about Democratic voters?

www.theguardian.com

I quoted what reflects my feelings. People are free to agree with whomever they want.

 

[Aeon Jiminy]

I think it's ego investment. So much of their ego seems hellbent on standing out, differentiating themselves from the rest of us "sheeple" by making an entirely empty gesture; and that is exactly what it was, an empty gesture.

As Kam pointed out, it's hard to do the actual work on the ground. Organizing, canvassing, making calls to potential constituents, talking with your politicians, attending meetings such as City Council and other public events where your voice can be heard, etc... I'm guessing that despite his so-very earnest belief in Stein he didn't do a single one of those things. I bet he hasn't for Bernie, either. If making a third party viable in this country is the goal, where is the work being done by such people

So, again, rather than do the hard work he has a brilliant idea. "Let's just take over one of the parties". We can use their existing infrastructure. When that appears to be failing for the second time in a row, our little boy is indignant so he starts tossing out insults accusing others of not caring about others (which would be laughable if it wasn't so insulting), being stupid and uninformed, doing what others tell them to do and just not understanding how so very right he is, if only we all would just understand that.

We have others here who have an interest in third party candidates and I believe have actually done work to forward their goal. But, guess what? That person saw Trump and despite their location being a lock for HRC, voted HRC. Not our little hero who fancies himself the "one true voice". Despite the admittance that his state was not "safe" he did what narcissists and other people who have no sense of community do, he voted to puff his chest and act for his own ego rather than the good of the country and most especially, its people.

The writing was on the wall with Trump. There was no denying what kind of president he would make. The man has a history. A sordid, seedy, racist, vengeful, childish, ignorant and narcissistic history. To refuse to acknowledge that in the service of an ego and even more, now that not only was just how bad he would be predictable but has played itself out in real time and much worse than thought over the last four years while real, actual harm and injustices are being committed upon both citizens and non-citizens is to be devoid of conscience.

What the solution for a little king, in his mind? Double down. Deny, obfuscate facts, play the earnest little soldier on message boards where the denizens are not exactly welcoming such displays of ignorance. Praise yourself as being a lone voice in the wilderness, pass on Russian propaganda, insult the intelligence of every person who has to read the drivel and of course, play the victim, while denying the truth of the victims being created every day under Trump.

That's a lot of talk and assumptions. Why is one protest vote so threatening to you, especially if it doesn't mean anything? It must mean something because it sparks such rage in you.

I'm not a lone voice. That's your imagination. I'm outnumbered.

How long are progressives who want real social economic change supposed to be content with their seat on the back of the bus?

In one breath you say "you don't belong here", in the other breath you say " you owe us your vote."

In 2016, I joined a coalition in my very Blue State, to fire a shot across the bow of the Democratic Party using Jill Stein's candidacy. That coalition was lead by a white woman who has devoted her life to education and social work in the inner city of Baltimore. She grew up in the town I came from. Her mother was a friend of my mother's to her end. She was the first young woman in my town to date a black man and never lived the shunning down. I was shunned for different reasons. She was one of my College professors. She lead a a campus group to take over the ROTC building in protest of war. We've been good friends for a long time. She walks the walk.

I do what I can do. I've bucked the system in a lot of ways. I've given employment to a diverse group of people. I've taken the burden of people with pre-existing conditions on my company health plan when it wasn't in my financial interests. I've promoted and supported a host of causes and projects outside of the political arena - for free.

I've lost interest in Democratic masturbation and the kind of gratification, you seem to get, in merely winning political puppet races.

I'm really not all that fond of myself, and that has to do with life circumstances beyond my control, things I would never share with you.

You never have and never will know me.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

How long are progressives who want real social economic change supposed to be content with their seat on the back of the bus?

Maybe until enough of them follow the example of people like A O-C by joining the Democratic Party and working within it to transform it into a truly progressive organisation by democratic means and persuasion rather than by trying to hijack it or fire shots across its bows, as you put it, from outside (how well did that work out for you?).

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Ducking Innula: -50 DKP.

 

[Brenda Archer]

Periodic reminder that most Sanders voters, and the man himself, are VoteBlueNoMatterWho and find third party voting to be destructive.

Many of us must be holding out on Biden because of healthcare. Without Medicare4All or other plans to protect patients from ruinous cost sharing, many people are worried they could be financially ruined by coronavirus, or denied care.

It’s not just individuals. Hospitals flooded with patients who can’t pay, may find themselves closing.

It’s time to move to the healthcare system of a normal Western country. Biden’s biggest problem right now is that he hasn’t done enough to show voters how he’s going to protect us from underinsurance.

I will not entertain answers that amount to “he means well” or “Trump is worse” (of course he is). We’re still in a primary season. I want to see detailed *plans.* I want to see them in the upcoming debate.

This is the coronavirus debate.

 

[Cristalle]

Periodic reminder that most Sanders voters, and the man himself, are VoteBlueNoMatterWho and find third party voting to be destructive.

Many of us must be holding out on Biden because of healthcare. Without Medicare4All or other plans to protect patients from ruinous cost sharing, many people are worried they could be financially ruined by coronavirus, or denied care.

It’s not just individuals. Hospitals flooded with patients who can’t pay, may find themselves closing.

It’s time to move to the healthcare system of a normal Western country. Biden’s biggest problem right now is that he hasn’t done enough to show voters how he’s going to protect us from underinsurance.

I will not entertain answers that amount to “he means well” or “Trump is worse” (of course he is). We’re still in a primary season. I want to see detailed *plans.* I want to see them in the upcoming debate.

This is the coronavirus debate.

If I did not live in a swing state, I'd vote my conscience in November. But because RBG needs to retire, I will hold my nose if Bernie isn't on the ballot. After this, though? I will go to my party home, which is no party. Or maybe Greens. The Democratic Party has no desire to really represent me. I'm sure that most people here will be pleased as punch, don't let the door hit you on the way out, blah blah. And you have the nerve to talk about Sanders supporters being childish, about bullying, whatever. Nobody owes them their vote. Nobody is entitled to a vote, it has to be earned. They are breeding another generation of disaffected voters and the loyalists don't care, in the hopes of picking up the rare NeverTrumper vote. Hope it works out, but that's a long-term path to destruction.

Maybe until enough of them follow the example of people like A O-C by joining the Democratic Party and working within it to transform it into a truly progressive organisation by democratic means and persuasion rather than by trying to hijack it or fire shots across its bows, as you put it, from outside (how well did that work out for you?).

AOC represents the path of trying to work in the system, true. The Justice Democrats. But as we've seen, Pelosi and others rip on her frequently and her policy agenda still isn't advancing. At the end of the day, the mainstream have control and until the left exercises a veto, it will have no leverage to get anything done.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Ducking Innula: -50 DKP.

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm not well versed in such things and I don't want to have to ask my nephew, who is into WoW -- DKP, I gather, are Dragon Kill Points, but after that... getting out of Innula's way when she's annoyed (always a prudent move) costs DKP?

 

[Brenda Archer]

If I did not live in a swing state, I'd vote my conscience in November. But because RBG needs to retire, I will hold my nose if Bernie isn't on the ballot. After this, though? I will go to my party home, which is no party. Or maybe Greens. The Democratic Party has no desire to really represent me. I'm sure that most people here will be pleased as punch, don't let the door hit you on the way out, blah blah. And you have the nerve to talk about Sanders supporters being childish, about bullying, whatever. Nobody owes them their vote. Nobody is entitled to a vote, it has to be earned. They are breeding another generation of disaffected voters and the loyalists don't care, in the hopes of picking up the rare NeverTrumper vote. Hope it works out, but that's a long-term path to destruction.



AOC represents the path of trying to work in the system, true. The Justice Democrats. But as we've seen, Pelosi and others rip on her frequently and her policy agenda still isn't advancing. At the end of the day, the mainstream have control and until the left exercises a veto, it will have no leverage to get anything done.

I’m sorry, but I don’t really understand. There are multiple parts to this.

I’m certainly glad you’re voting blue in the general this November. This is probably the longest time frame anyone can reasonably look at right now. Too many variables are at play, including the possibility of a black swan event.

The second part of this is that, because we are locked by numbers into a two party system, most progressive practical activism occurs outside of party structures. This is generally on the backs of volunteers, although occasionally a union, industry group or well-known church will be involved. These activists are doing good all the time and can always use help. They also tend to be local. They are the farm teams of state and national politics.

The third part of this is that a huge share of the governance affecting people’s lives is at the state and local levels. Here in Arizona, if we didn’t have the Democrats as a firewall against the extreme Right, we’d be in serious trouble both as individuals and as an economy. For all their claims to be for small business, Republicans are constantly trying to do things which are cruel, destructive and unethical. If you don’t want to support the local Dems, are you working to get third party people into state legislatures and city governments where they can Do Something?

The fourth part of this is the economy and culture. Obviously the Democrats, at the national level, are a center-right party. This reflects the society they are in. Even extreme Right positions are normalized now in the population and it’s only in contrast to this that the the Party is to the Left. Abstaining from politics (and supporting people making vanity runs at the Presidency instead of volunteering for local government and activism is a kind of abstinence) is not going to have an educational effect on anyone. It’s just going to be registered as yet another disaffected voter and play into the hands of the extreme Right.

And I do mean the extreme Right, and not the center right. Bailing out of capitalism is out of reach for most individuals, but local government and activism are not.

 

[Cristalle]

I’m sorry, but I don’t really understand. There are multiple parts to this.

I’m certainly glad you’re voting blue in the general this November. This is probably the longest time frame anyone can reasonably look at right now. Too many variables are at play, including the possibility of a black swan event.

The second part of this is that, because we are locked by numbers into a two party system, most progressive practical activism occurs outside of party structures. This is generally on the backs of volunteers, although occasionally a union, industry group or well-known church will be involved. These activists are doing good all the time and can always use help. They also tend to be local. They are the farm teams of state and national politics.

The third part of this is that a huge share of the governance affecting people’s lives is at the state and local levels. Here in Arizona, if we didn’t have the Democrats as a firewall against the extreme Right, we’d be in serious trouble both as individuals and as an economy. For all their claims to be for small business, Republicans are constantly trying to do things which are cruel, destructive and unethical. If you don’t want to support the local Dems, are you working to get third party people into state legislatures and city governments where they can Do Something?

The fourth part of this is the economy and culture. Obviously the Democrats, at the national level, are a center-right party. This reflects the society they are in. Even extreme Right positions are normalized now in the population and it’s only in contrast to this that the the Party is to the Left. Abstaining from politics (and supporting people making vanity runs at the Presidency instead of volunteering for local government and activism is a kind of abstinence) is not going to have an educational effect on anyone. It’s just going to be registered as yet another disaffected voter and play into the hands of the extreme Right.

And I do mean the extreme Right, and not the center right. Bailing out of capitalism is out of reach for most individuals, but local government and activism are not.

I'll vote downballot blue locally and for the least harm if that's what it comes to. But to save myself spam mailers and dingbats begging money from me, and the idea that somehow I'm obligated to vote for neoliberal trash? My vote is a transaction. I'll register strategically if I have to, but this is not my party home. I have no home, it seems.

 

[Brenda Archer]

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm not well versed in such things and I don't want to have to ask my nephew, who is into WoW -- DKP, I gather, are Dragon Kill Points, but after that... getting out of Innula's way when she's annoyed (always a prudent move) costs DKP?

DKP was an older system for allotting gear drops in a raid or a guild. I’m not sure about how it was used in other games than WoW. It became a meme with the Onyxia Wipe video (extremely funny video of a raid leader swearing up a storm while his raid gets killed).

 

[Innula Zenovka]

AOC represents the path of trying to work in the system, true. The Justice Democrats. But as we've seen, Pelosi and others rip on her frequently and her policy agenda still isn't advancing. At the end of the day, the mainstream have control and until the left exercises a veto, it will have no leverage to get anything done.

Welcome to the way progressive political parties work -- political parties, at least ones large enough to be more than mere vaniity projects and LARP, are always coalitions of people who disagree with each other but who nevertheless have enough common goals and values to be able to work together, though they're generally arguing about what their goals should be.

If the left wants to get its way, then the left has to join the party and work within it by persuading party members to back them, and by bringing in new members who back them, and start to take over enough of the party apparatus to be able to make policy. That's the way it works.

As to AOC, she's only been in Congress for 21 months, for heaven's sake. She and the rest of "the Squad" have made a remarkable amount of progress in the brief time they've been there, but it's going to take a lot more time, and a lot more of them, to achieve what they want.