Brexit.

Argent Stonecutter

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There was speculation that Bercow might do that.
 
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I don't know. Not having a World War every few decades was probably a good enough reason for the EU, or keeping up with a monolith like the US in world trade.... Together we stand, and all that.
Fuck world trade. And fuck globalization as it happens.

"Together we stand"? For that, all participants have to be on the same level, economically, standard of living, etc. And that's not the case within Europe.

And not having a world war in decades? Not allowing the USA to keep their troops within Europe after the Soviets left Central Europe would have had the same effect. After all, the USA (sorry guys, nothing personal) are the worst war criminal ever: They started wars, invaded countries, ignited civil unrest and civil wars in other countries - why should anyone want to keep up or even trade with them? In my opinion, that warlord bunch NATO should have been dissolved the same day as the Warshaw Pact was dissolved.


International capital goes where it wants to, seeking to maximise profits and production, and neither Parliament nor any other national legislature can do much about it, any more than they can, on their own, do much about global warming or pollution.
They could do if they wanted. These legal entities do have the necessary tools to keep the capital in place, they just deliberately chose not to use them.

That's why I think that all governments in Europe should not only make their own *Exit, but also should take back all the powers they're supposed to have: Instead of allowing the capital to bribe and blackmail political representatives, and even "suggesting" entire laws, the governments should show the capital its place: that the capital should do what the governments want, not the other way around. That the capital has to stay where the government wants it to, go where the government wants it to, do what the government wants it to do - and be it by the threat of freezing bank accounts or any other measures any government could impose if it wanted.

Here's what I think would be the optimal way:
If I had a say, any big company or bank that wants money from the state (be it that it wants tax reductions, tax-paid land to build a new place on, other tax-paid support, or some tax-paid bail-out for example), would instead be taken over by the state completely, 100% nationalized. They don't want to be taken over, they don't get a dime from the state, easy as that. A company or bank wants to close down their plants and move production elsewhere? Hostile takeover by the state, and all employees within the country can keep their jobs. A company or bank doesn't want workers unions inside, or even a works council? The threat of a hostile takeover and other consequences will change the owners' minds. A bank wants to fusion with another bank to maximize profit? Without the explicit permission of the government of the country the original HQ of this bank is seated, no chance. A company wants to sell a part of it to a foreign investor? Nope. It would be nationalized instead. And not only that part: the entire company. Some bank wants to mess with the exchange rates or stock courses, or tries to offer or buy "options" and "derivates": all employees involved would go to jail for fraud, period. and so on and so on.
The governments should reclaim their powers, and show the capital its place.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Looks like a no deal is more likely to happen now on 29th March
I don't think so. No deal is neither government policy nor -- as evidenced by last week's votes -- is it supported by Parliament.

The government had already said, last week, that it would ask for an extension -- either a short one if Meaningful Vote 3 were passed or a long one if it wasn't.

So there's no earthly reason I can see why they'd suddenly turn round and precipitate a disaster neither they nor Parliament want simply out of pique.

For all her many faults, Theresa May isn't Hitler raging in his bunker in late April 1945.
 
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Sid

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John Bercow deserves a statue right in front of Parliament.
Voting over and over about the same thing without significant change of text or before new general elections have taken place, is just not democratic.
And it makes a joke out of the democratic system IMHO.
 

OrinB

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John Bercow deserves a statue right in front of Parliament.
Voting over and over about the same thing without significant change of text or before new general elections have taken place, is just not democratic.
And it makes a joke out of the democratic system IMHO.
So do referenDUMBs but we keep asking to have them.
 

Innula Zenovka

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International capital goes where it wants to, seeking to maximise profits and production, and neither Parliament nor any other national legislature can do much about it, any more than they can, on their own, do much about global warming or pollution.
They could do if they wanted. These legal entities do have the necessary tools to keep the capital in place, they just deliberately chose not to use them.

That's why I think that all governments in Europe should not only make their own *Exit, but also should take back all the powers they're supposed to have: Instead of allowing the capital to bribe and blackmail political representatives, and even "suggesting" entire laws, the governments should show the capital its place: that the capital should do what the governments want, not the other way around. That the capital has to stay where the government wants it to, go where the government wants it to, do what the government wants it to do - and be it by the threat of freezing bank accounts or any other measures any government could impose if it wanted.

Here's what I think would be the optimal way:
If I had a say, any big company or bank that wants money from the state (be it that it wants tax reductions, tax-paid land to build a new place on, other tax-paid support, or some tax-paid bail-out for example), would instead be taken over by the state completely, 100% nationalized. They don't want to be taken over, they don't get a dime from the state, easy as that. A company or bank wants to close down their plants and move production elsewhere? Hostile takeover by the state, and all employees within the country can keep their jobs. A company or bank doesn't want workers unions inside, or even a works council? The threat of a hostile takeover and other consequences will change the owners' minds. A bank wants to fusion with another bank to maximize profit? Without the explicit permission of the government of the country the original HQ of this bank is seated, no chance. A company wants to sell a part of it to a foreign investor? Nope. It would be nationalized instead. And not only that part: the entire company. Some bank wants to mess with the exchange rates or stock courses, or tries to offer or buy "options" and "derivates": all employees involved would go to jail for fraud, period. and so on and so on.
The governments should reclaim their powers, and show the capital its place.
And if you go down this path of fairytale economics you end up completely isolated from the world economic system, like North Korea only more so.

Something a lot of people don't appreciate, I think, is that goods produced in factories have value only in the context of the capitalist system, which is as global and fast moving as the internet.

By this I mean that the the working in the factory produces goods not because she wants them, or because her friends or community want them, but in order to earn wages to buy things that she and her family do, in fact, want or need. So her labour has value only to the extent that the goods are valued by the market -- if they're not, then the business has no money to pay her wages.

You can't simply remove production from the capitalist system by changing its ownership or by regulating it. Capitalism is, for better or worse, the whole economic environment in which we all live.

Now, let's extend this a bit further. As you will be aware, many governments run large budget deficits (I'm talking about government spending, not the balance of trade) in order to fund services provided by the government -- health care, education, infrastructure and so on.

How do they do this? By borrowing money, either short or long term.

How likely do you think investors are going to be to lend money to a government that starts expropriating property in the way you outline? These are investors outside the government's jurisdiction, remember.

So it ain't going to work, Eight. It's fairy stories, that's all. Stop wasting your time on it.

One point of detail I can't miss, since it's a particular bugbear of mine:
Some bank wants to mess with the exchange rates or stock courses, or tries to offer or buy "options" and "derivates": all employees involved would go to jail for fraud, period. and so on and so on.
Do you have any idea what currency options are? Let me explain.

If I'm an importer or exporter, one of my biggest worries is what is going to happen with exchange rates. That is, whenever a German company does a deal to buy or sell goods or materials outside the Euro-zone on a long term contract, the two sides have to agree on which currency to use. This automatically exposes one or both sides to the risk of currency fluctuations -- you know what the exchange rate for the € vs $ or ¥ or £ is now, but neither side knows what it's going to be like a month or six months or a year.

What do you do about this risk? If the exchange rate moves against you, it could vastly increase your costs or depress your earnings.

Answer -- you can take out insurance against adverse currency movements, which is what the futures and options market is all about. If I sign a contract to supply something for however many US$, payable in 3 months' time, then I know that those dollars are worth whatever it is in £s at today's exchange rates. If I don't want to gamble on what the rate is in 3 months' time, I can either buy an option to sell those $s in 3 months at an agreed rate, so if the $ falls against the £, I can exercise my option to sell the dollars at the fixed rate, but if it rises, then I just forget about the option and sell them at the higher exchange rate. Alternatively, I can buy or sell futures, which are a fixed contract to sell the dollars for the agreed number of pounds.

That's all currency futures and options are -- insurance. Trading them is very specialised and technical, since the traders stand to make or lose huge amounts of money, and back in the 1980s and 1990s a lot of people got their fingers burned by dabbling in a business they didn't understand, but there's nothing sinister about them at all. They're absolutely fundamental to international trade and travel.
 

Porsupah Ree

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So.. what happens now? Am I correct in thinking that Kyle-Wilson doesn't apply, as that could only be advanced as an amendment to a government motion, or could it be voted on independently as a means of expressing the will of Parliament? As contemptuous as this government has been, perhaps even No.10 might see it as a legitimate mandate and take it on board, and present the WA with that caveat of a referendum being held to approve it.

If that were indeed to happen, I'd hope Kyle would revert the wording to the earlier "May or Remain" wording, or at least retain the right to determine what the options should be, to avoid the government from pulling a "May or crashing out" stunt.
 

Innula Zenovka

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So.. what happens now? Am I correct in thinking that Kyle-Wilson doesn't apply, as that could only be advanced as an amendment to a government motion, or could it be voted on independently as a means of expressing the will of Parliament? As contemptuous as this government has been, perhaps even No.10 might see it as a legitimate mandate and take it on board, and present the WA with that caveat of a referendum being held to approve it.

If that were indeed to happen, I'd hope Kyle would revert the wording to the earlier "May or Remain" wording, or at least retain the right to determine what the options should be, to avoid the government from pulling a "May or crashing out" stunt.
If there's no motion to debate, then there's no motion to be amended by Kyle-Wilson or anyone else.

Presumably, though, it would be open to the Government to do as I think you suggest -- that is, ask the House to vote on a motion to seek a delay from the EU in order to hold a referendum ( either on Accept WA vs Remain or on Accept WA vs TBD) , since that would be substantially different from anything that's been debated before.
 
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Tigger

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What's wrong with these two demands? I mean, why on earth should it be even still allowed that anyone fishes within the sea territories of another country? If I had a say, I would stop that immediately.
Oh I don't know, how about they can fish there because the government of that country sold the rights to fish there. Nobody forced them to sell but they are a government that REALLY likes capitalism and they sell to the highest bidder, regardless of where they come from. Even when they don't sell the rights to foreign companies they sell them to the biggest commercial fishing enterprises, pricing small fishermen out of the market entirely.

Selling off the sea: how our fish lost their freedom to market forces
Government is still allocating the vast majority of fishing-rights to industrial fishing vessels. One trawler alone – the Dutch-controlled Cornelis Vrolijk – receives 23 per cent of England’s quota: almost four times that of England’s entire small-scale fishing fleet.
Brexit is a red herring when it comes to the plight of UK fishermen | John Lichfield
In Scotland, foreign companies have been kept at bay but the country’s generous quotas for species such as herring and mackerel have been bought up by a handful of fishing families. Two-fifths of the entire Scottish catch by value, and 65% by tonnage, was landed by 19 powerful super-trawlers in 2016. Small-scale coastal fishermen, who operate 80% of Scottish boats, have to make do with 1% of quotas.
Let's be clear, leaving the EU will do nothing to stop the government selling quotas to non-British fishing interests. Nor will leaving the EU end the system of quotas, because quotas were introduced as a way to try and prevent us from fishing the ocean's creatures into extinction. The local fishermen who are suffering now will go on suffering, they may even suffer more if their catch hits barriers on the way to their (mostly European) buyers.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Oh I don't know, how about they can fish there because the government of that country sold the rights to fish there. Nobody forced them to sell but they are a government that REALLY likes capitalism and they sell to the highest bidder, regardless of where they come from. Even when they don't sell the rights to foreign companies they sell them to the biggest commercial fishing enterprises, pricing small fishermen out of the market entirely.

Selling off the sea: how our fish lost their freedom to market forces


Brexit is a red herring when it comes to the plight of UK fishermen | John Lichfield


Let's be clear, leaving the EU will do nothing to stop the government selling quotas to non-British fishing interests. Nor will leaving the EU end the system of quotas, because quotas were introduced as a way to try and prevent us from fishing the ocean's creatures into extinction. The local fishermen who are suffering now will go on suffering, they may even suffer more if their catch hits barriers on the way to their (mostly European) buyers.
Also this speech by the SNP's Dr Philippa Whitford

 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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So do referenDUMBs but we keep asking to have them.
The thing is, believe it or not, that Bercow is quite a controversal figure; and one of the few who might not get a pension (or whatever the proper word is) for his time being speaker when it ends. There were and are many MPs for docking his pay and pension; also the Times demanded his retirement as well not so long ago.
 

Da5id Weatherwax

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The thing is, believe it or not, that Bercow is quite a controversal figure; and one of the few who might not get a pension (or whatever the proper word is) for his time being speaker when it ends. There were and are many MPs for docking his pay and pension; also the Times demanded his retirement as well not so long ago.
You can tell when a speaker is being effective because he pisses everybody off, not just the frothing-fanatics-du-jour.