Brexit.

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Just ask the EU about EU myths: European Commission in the UK - European Commission

There are two entries about bananas: Bananas and Brussels - European Commission and Curved bananas - European Commission

And of course India is laughing their ass off about the incompetence shown by the British politicians; which former colony would not?

 

[Myficals]

I hate this current unleashed, "free" market economy with a passion because it is based on exploitation

I just wanted to briefly step in and note, I like the way your posts imply that planned economies (at least as far as we've so far tried them) are the worker's paradises Marx envisaged. Even leaving aside the hellholes of the USSR under Stalin, or North Korea under pretty much everyone in the last 60 years, there's plenty of misery to go around.

For a quick example, how about we look at the GDR? I'll admit, East Germany had a relatively good standard of living compared to the rest of the old Soviet bloc (I wonder if that had anything to do with the favourable trade deals and lowered tariffs they enjoyed with West Germany, hmm?). Even still, the nation leaned heavily on the forced labour of prisoners (including thousands of political prisoners), and imported huge numbers of workers from Mozambique, effectively as indentured slaves. It wasn't all sunshine and roses, and the GDR was one of the "good" (wrt living standards) planned economies.

You might want to keep this is mind the next time you pine for the good old days of a divided Germany. Just because you lived a sheltered existence and didn't see the exploitation going on, doesn't mean it wasn't happening. I'm not saying bad shit doesn't happen directly in, or in support of, the capitalist economies of today. But if you think reinventing the planned economies of the Soviet era will be some sort of panacea, you're kidding yourself. In fact if history is any guide, that would just make things ten times worse.

 

[eighthdwarf Checchinato]

I didn't mean bananas - but fruit that has been produced in Europe for long in sufficient amounts. Let's say apples: There is, for example, a kind of "apple museum" here in Germany: a field with about 180 different sorts of apple that are not grown elsewhere in Germany anymore because they don't meet the EU norms for apples, hence they're not allowed be sold. Or take strawberries which have to have a minimum size thanks to Brussels, or they are not allowed to be sold. Or take other fruit and vegetables. Or potatoes: Prior to the EU, there were, I think, about 80 different sorts of potatoes in Germany alone, depending on the region you were in - now there are only like 6 or 8 sorts available anymore. Or those stupid posters that have been imposed on all tobacco products. Or the EU-wide ban on smoking in public buildings, as well as in restaurants and pubs where hot meals are served. Or that our Marmelade had to be renamed to Konfitüre (= jam in English) because the label "Marmelade" were reserved only for that product made of oranges or lemons.
Or that our universities have to have Master's and Bachelor's classes now instead of our Ingenieur and Diplomingenieur for example.

Such nonsensical decisions and impositions - by an organization that has no democratic legitimation whatsoever - are what makes me hate the EU as it is.
And yes, from my point of view, the EU has no democratic legitimation at all, simply because there were no referendums prior to "founding" it.

 

[eighthdwarf Checchinato]

Even still, the nation leaned heavily on the forced labour of prisoners (including thousands of political prisoners), and imported huge numbers of workers from Mozambique, effectively as indentured slaves. It wasn't all sunshine and roses, and the GDR was one of the "good" (wrt living standards) planned economies.

Actually - and I know this from own experience - the workers from Mozambique (and Vietnam, etc) got the same wages as the East-German workers in their branch, plus some pocket money in DM. They had the same rights and duties as any other worker in the GDR (except that they weren't GDR citizens, so they didn't have the right to vote or be elected), could travel wherever they wanted and could afford to travel to, and so on.
About the prisoners: Of course, they had to work too. So what? Back in the GDR, everyone had not only the (btw actionable) right to get a job, but also the duty to work. And we had an unemployment rate of 0.0something percent. So even the prisoners did their duty, instead of sitting all day in their cell, they were driven to a plant where they worked their shifts, then they went back to the prisons they belong to. What's wrong with that?
However, the "Spatensoldaten" ("spade soldiers") - people who refused military service for irrational "faith" reasons, and were forced to work in the road building or railroad building area instead - indeed had to work really hard for little money. These were the true "indentured slaves". But even these people chose this way by their own will: They knew they would have had it much easier if they just went through the service and be done with it.

 

[Sid]

And yes, from my point of view, the EU has no democratic legitimation at all, simply because there were no referendums prior to "founding" it.

There was no referendum prior to founding Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, France etc etc....... either.

AND: the EU is not a country. Just countries working together in certain areas where that makes sense for them. Of course having treaties means having obligations as well.
Each individual country has a vote on what is and isn't captured in EU treaties. The EU requires vast majorities for each decision.

Edited to make a few logical changes in my text.

 

[Myficals]

Actually - and I know this from own experience - the workers from Mozambique (and Vietnam, etc) got the same wages as the East-German workers in their branch, plus some pocket money in DM

O'rly?

They didn't pay the workers, they gave them a small stiped in order to keep them alive, then paid the majority of the supposed wage to their governments for the right to use their labour.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Herr, lass Hirn regnen!

About the prisoners: Of course, they had to work too.

Have you ever heared about forced labour? A feature, that every dictatorship has to a smaller or bigger degree; this was forced labour. Period.

And we had an unemployment rate of 0.0something percent. So even the prisoners did their duty, instead of sitting all day in their cell, they were driven to a plant where they worked their shifts, then they went back to the prisons they belong to. What's wrong with that?

Yes, on paper the unemployment rate was impressive and a good thing to camouflage the simple reality that many jobs were not needed at all, and that there was indeed unemployment.

However, the "Spatensoldaten" ("spade soldiers") - people who refused military service for irrational "faith" reasons, and were forced to work in the road building or railroad building area instead - indeed had to work really hard for little money. These were the true "indentured slaves". But even these people chose this way by their own will: They knew they would have had it much easier if they just went through the service and be done with it.

Again: dictatorship at work; the same dumb argumentation could be applied to the Third Reich and males, who didn't want to be part of the Reichswehr, so telling the resulting problems were all their own fault...

 

[Tris]

...
Such nonsensical decisions and impositions - by an organization that has no democratic legitimation whatsoever - are what makes me hate the EU as it is.
And yes, from my point of view, the EU has no democratic legitimation at all, simply because there were no referendums prior to "founding" it.

There are no referndums in germany for such a thing. The german constitution only allows referendums (on a state level) for things like territorial changes or changing the constitution itself. There was no referendum whether or not that wall should came down or not either, btw.

Alltough i find it rather strange that someone asks for a referendum that so clearly likes a totalitarian state like the GDR and who so vehemently askes for government controlled regulation.

 

[Luisa Land]

Maybe Christiano can seperate this discussion about statements concerning the good old GDR, socialismn and capitalistic charactre of the EU.
As it looks meanwhile this thread is expanded by these issues. and so there are ppl enough who like to discuss this, as it seems that an own thread would be worthwhile.

And such a seperation would have the advantage, that when I make my visit to this thread, that I find posts concerning Brexit mainly, instead of mainly discussions about new remarks from the "Bulletin of the Komsomol"

yes, I know : everything is associated with everything. But in this case, I would like that this thread. would stay a litle bit more to the subject "Brexit" . But it is only my opinion

 

[Kara Spengler]

Maybe Christiano can seperate this discussion about statements concerning the good old GDR, socialismn and capitalistic charactre of the EU.
As it looks meanwhile this thread is expanded by these issues. and so there are ppl enough who like to discuss this, as it seems that an own thread would be worthwhile.

And such a seperation would have the advantage, that when I make my visit to this thread, that I find posts concerning Brexit mainly, instead of mainly discussions about new remarks from the "Bulletin of the Komsomol"

yes, I know : everything is associated with everything. But in this case, I would like that this thread. would stay a litle bit more to the subject "Brexit" . But it is only my opinion

Of course there is also our tradition of going offtopic.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Well well well my droogs, here's just for fun an old caricature from 1989 before the wall was torn down:

To explain it: you see Erich Honecker, who was the last ruler of the GDR, in a trolley labeled "socialism" running down the hill, striking an educational pose and stating that neither ox nor donkey wants to stop socialism. Right beside the trolley there'S an ox and donkey, thinking "we don't plan to stop it."

 

[Veritable Quandry]

To sum up, you lived in a country that only worked because people standing on walls shot anyone who tried to get out and you believe that the ones who deserved to be punished are the ones who refused to hold the guns. And you think the EU is the one that lacks democratic legitimacy.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

Or those stupid posters that have been imposed on all tobacco products. Or the EU-wide ban on smoking in public buildings, as well as in restaurants and pubs where hot meals are served.

Wait a second, which side of this are you arguing?

 

[Innula Zenovka]

When advancing a controversial position, it's a good idea to be prepared for basic questions:

 

[OrinB]

It's pointless engaging eighth in these arguments as they'll go on for ages, with no sense and she'll dig herself an enormous hole. The subject matter is a trigger for her.

 

[Khamon]

It's pointless engaging eighth in these arguments as they'll go on for ages, with no sense and she'll dig herself an enormous hole. The subject matter is a trigger for her.

Yes but we simply can't resist the fun of trolling someone who will continue to reply. Everybody here understands Eighth's mindset and everybody here understands that she will not be persuaded by any of our walls of text. But funny fun fun will be had by all!

 

[Innula Zenovka]

To be fair to Eighth, the complaint that the EU is a set up to promote the interests of capitalist enterprises is one that used to carry a lot of weight in the UK, too. Back in the 1980s, the Labour Party -- then led by Michael Foot -- wanted to take Britain out of this capitalist club, as he saw it (though he later came to revise his views completely and became pro-EU in the 1990s), as did Tony Benn, whose protege Jeremy Corbyn was.

So it's a line of argument I recognise, certainly. Neil Kinnock, the sometime Labour Leader (and protege of Michael Foot) writes here about how his views on the EU evolved: Neil Kinnock: why I changed my mind about Britain in Europe

 

[OrinB]

Yes but we simply can't resist the fun of trolling someone who will continue to reply. Everybody here understands Eighth's mindset and everybody here understands that she will not be persuaded by any of our walls of text. But funny fun fun will be had by all!

And your concern for eighth is... umm where?

 

[Kara Spengler]

When advancing a controversial position, it's a good idea to be prepared for basic questions:

Without even seeing the 'deal' I would be willing to bet you will not like it.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

Without even seeing the 'deal' I would be willing to bet you will not like it.

The UK gets free trade...and they pay for a wall...