Brexit.

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

The wet dreams of some Brexiteers are really something... what do they want next, an absolute monarchy again?

 

[Innula Zenovka]

There's this insane concept of "competition at all costs" again. But it wouldn't work in a well-regulated market economy anyways. And yes, if I had a say, the national market here would be heavily regulated.
Plus, it's not up to 'you' as a fictitious company owner, but it's up to the importer to set the price - and if they are required to sell it for a higher price than a similar product of local production costs, then they have to comply.

For example Opel: This company (or, brand) was founded in Germany, so Germany is the origin of Opel. That's why it's my opinion that all Opel cars should be produced in Germany only, no matter where they're exported to.

According to Wikipedia,

Opel is a German automobile manufacturer, subsidiary of French automaker Groupe PSA since August 2017. From 1929 until 2017, Opel was owned by American automaker General Motors. Opel vehicles are sold in the United Kingdom under the Vauxhall brand.

Opel traces its roots to a sewing machine manufacturer founded by Adam Opel in 1862 in Rüsselsheim am Main. The company began manufacturing bicycles in 1886 and produced its first automobile in 1899. After listing on the stock market in 1929, General Motors took a majority stake in Opel and then full control in 1931, establishing the American reign over the German automaker for nearly 90 years.

In March 2017, Groupe PSA agreed to acquire Opel from General Motors for €2.2 billion, making the French automaker the second biggest in Europe, after Volkswagen.

So if anything, I think historically that gives the Americans a better claim on Opel than anyone else. Opel - Wikipedia.

Do your plans apply to other goods, too? I'm thinking in particular of patented pharmaceuticals here. There's several items I have regularly to take, otherwise life gets unpleasant in various ways, and ultimately shorter. Under your scheme am I out of luck if the patents are held not by Boots but by Merck or Bayer?

Bentley and Mini were founded in GB, so they should be produced in GB only. And so on.
And no, it wouldn't reduce employment - at least not within the national market. Quite the opposite. And with subsidized products, more people could afford regionally produced stuff. So it would be good for all: producers and customers.

Nope. If you're making cars, you need to produce and sell a minimum number of each particular product line in order for it to be viable. Otherwise you don't bother.

So if your market is >512 million EU residents you find that a lot easier than if you're restricted to c83 million Germans or c66 million Brits. And if your market is restricted to c10 million Swedes or c 11 million Belgians, or c4.7 million Irish or c5.7 million Danes it's a lot smaller.

And you haven't yet answered my question, what on earth is wrong with Brits being able to buy BMWs or Germans being able to buy Saabs, or Belgians being able to buy Fiats or everyone being able to buy Hondas, if that's what they want to do?

And in my opinion, if the British government had even a bit of a spine, they would tell the company owners who want to leave GB because of the Brexit: "Either you stay here on your own will and cope with it, or we'll have the Executives freeze your bank accounts, de-validate your passports, and nationalize your assets. Now choose. Oh, and by the way, come next year the capital gains tax will rise to the level of the income tax!"

Apart from the fact that most of the companies affected are, in fact, owned by shareholders and investment funds (including the funds that pay people's pensions), the course of action you advocate would, of course, be completely illegal under both English common law and the European Convention of Human Rights.

What's next? Should HMG also set about building an Antifaschistischer Schutzwall round the country to keep company owners in the UK and foreign exports out?

 

[eighthdwarf Checchinato]

And you haven't yet answered my question, what on earth is wrong with Brits being able to buy BMWs or Germans being able to buy Saabs, or Belgians being able to buy Fiats or everyone being able to buy Hondas, if that's what they want to do?

As I said, they would be able to buy them - although for a higher price than that of a locally produced car, because of the import tariff.

Under your scheme am I out of luck if the patents are held not by Boots but by Merck or Bayer?

No, because under my "scheme" this stuff would still be exported: Simply because producing something in one country only doesn't rule out exporting these products to all other countries. And patents on medicine? Under my "scheme", all patents on medicine and other health-related goods would become CC 'd immediately, so that each and every pharmacy company could produce their "generic" counterparts without judicial hassle.


Anyway, I just heard on the radio that PSA plans to cut the staff in the Opel factory Rüsselsheim down to half its current number.
Under my "scheme" of a heavily controlled market economy, this would be impossible: Either the owner keeps all employees, except those they have a valid reason to get rid off (and it's not up to them to decide which reason is valid, but up to unions and state) -- or the factory will become 100% state-controlled, and the employees can return to their working places anyway...

 

[Luisa Land]

Maybe someone could help me:

I dont know any national economy which is self-sufficient. Good, Northern Korea seems to have this aim but I couldnt find any report, how successfull they are.
I know it was a declared aim of the german Nationalsocialists under Hitler. The autarkic economy , so was the idea, should be secured by conquest of new colonies and by the conquest of the Sovjet-Union So the fascists thought even the big German Reich was not to able to establish a self-sufficient economy...and how this story ended, we all know

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

In a nutshell there is a word for this approach on national economics: mercantilism, and in modern context neomercantilism. It is not without reason a thing of the past.

No economy has ever been fully self sufficient nor will be, trade goes back even to the old Egyptians, because of geographical disparities: when you are in a desert and need wood, you need to get it from somewhere. I cannot live without my cup of coffee in the mornings, but growing this in Europe is impossible, so I need to import it from somewhere else. This is how trade comes alive.

By the way the protests against it started the USA:

 

[Tigger]

And in my opinion, if the British government had even a bit of a spine, they would tell the company owners who want to leave GB because of the Brexit: "Either you stay here on your own will and cope with it, or we'll have the Executives freeze your bank accounts, de-validate your passports, and nationalize your assets. Now choose. Oh, and by the way, come next year the capital gains tax will rise to the level of the income tax!"

Most of those companies are not british. They are the british arms of international companies. The UK would have a hard job freezing the bank accounts of the owners. Those companies have already looked. They see that their factory in the UK sells 10% of its product in the UK and 90% in the rest of the EU (using the baby bottle manufacturer as an example) and they have decided they are better off protecting the 90% and risking 10% rather than protecting 10% and risking 90%.

Britain can do what it likes to tax (how does capital gains tax effect companies anyhow?) because those companies wont be operating in the UK.

For those few companies that are british if you implement your "stay here and cope with it scheme" and they can't relocate you'll see many of them just shut down. Yeah I know, you'll take them all into state control and use the states limited income not only to pay for health care, defence, social security, infrastructure, etc. but also to subsidise loss making businesses. Because the country is so rich it can afford all of that.

And if you do nationalise the assets, take the factories into state operation that wont make the component suppliers send them parts, particularly not parts that come from the parent company. Of course even if you are able to keep on making Nissan cars in an ex-Nissan factory you will be violating IP rights in the designs and could expect punitive measures from other countries not least of which the countries the parent company is based in which will be slightly pissed at the UK stealing from its businesses.

 

[Tigger]

...
So if your market is >512 million EU residents you find that a lot easier than if you're restricted to c83 million Germans or c66 million Brits. And if your market is restricted to c10 million Swedes or c 11 million Belgians, or c4.7 million Irish or c5.7 million Danes it's a lot smaller.
...

EU's smallest nations: Estonia (1.3m) Luxembourg (570,000) or Malta (460,000). I've lived in a town (not even a city) more than half the size of the total population of the last two.

 

[Tigger]

The brexiteers are starting to be genuinely afraid of no brexit now. Today Rees-Mogg was even saying he could support May's deal.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

As I said, they would be able to buy them - although for a higher price than that of a locally produced car, because of the import tariff.

Let's try it another way. Why do you want to make everyone pay more for their cars, and other manufactured products?

It's going to increase prices even for locally produced cars, as far as I can see, because a factory producing only for the domestic market loses all the economies of scale it enjoys producing for the EU market. It's also going to cause large job losses in existing factories, since German car manufacturers main market suddenly becomes all German drivers rather than every single driver in the EU. Sure, each German car manufacturer's share of the German market goes up, but the total number of vehicles sold by German manufacturers goes way down.

Imported cars become more expensive because of tariffs and German cars become more expensive because you lose economies of scale.

Who benefits?

No, because under my "scheme" this stuff would still be exported: Simply because producing something in one country only doesn't rule out exporting these products to all other countries. And patents on medicine? Under my "scheme", all patents on medicine and other health-related goods would become CC 'd immediately, so that each and every pharmacy company could produce their "generic" counterparts without judicial hassle.

Depends, again, on their being a sufficiently large local market to justify the investment in creating new production facilities for all these generic brands for local consumption. And, of course, it would be completely against WTO rules.

Anyway, I just heard on the radio that PSA plans to cut the staff in the Opel factory Rüsselsheim down to half its current number.
Under my "scheme" of a heavily controlled market economy, this would be impossible: Either the owner keeps all employees, except those they have a valid reason to get rid off (and it's not up to them to decide which reason is valid, but up to unions and state) -- or the factory will become 100% state-controlled, and the employees can return to their working places anyway...

Ultimately, you end up taxing everyone to pay workers to produce goods either no one wants to buy, or that they don't really want to buy, but have to because of discriminatory tariffs. Why not spend the money on helping them find jobs producing things people actually do want, or to pay them to do stuff the government needs doing?

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The brexiteers are starting to be genuinely afraid of no brexit now. Today Rees-Mogg was even saying he could support May's deal.

He did add the proviso "so long as she gets rid of the backstop," though, thus making it a complete non-starter.

 

[Wesleytron]

Plus, it's not up to 'you' as a fictitious company owner, but it's up to the importer to set the price - and if they are required to sell it for a higher price than a similar product of local production costs, then they have to comply

Ah okay I get you. My fictional company is not allowed to trade directly in your country, I have to sell them to another company in your country for them to sell.

So even if I sell them at a bargain super cut price to your importer, they still have to sell them for more money than the locally produced cars. I suppose that works out well for your local importer. They get to purchase stock cheaper than it costs to make in their homeland, but because they have to sell them on for more money they make a nice tidy profit. Plus, the 'state' gets to make a bit of cash from the tariff as well. That's a nice bit of win win capitalist thinking.

Although, having said that, I suppose if the importer has to sell them at above the rate of the local products (because the state dictates that they have to), then people may be less inclined to want to pay for them and so go for the cheaper locally made products. The importer won't be buying as many from me in the first place, which means I might not want to sell them quite so cheap after all. I've got my profits to think about! I might even decide it's not worth it at all if your importer isn't shifting units. Or they themselves might decide it's not worth it. So then the only choice your people have is those locally made cars. Which I guess is your plan?

 

[Tigger]

One last thought about nationalised car companies and other such things. When we in the UK argue against it, it's because we've seen it.
In fact it's a national joke. British Leyland.

BL was the parent company of just about every british car you've ever (or never) heard of. Jaguar, Triumph, Austin, Morris, Mini, MG, Landrover. A great sprawling mess of a company, our government even implemented import quotas to try to make us buy more Leyland cars. It collapsed and was nationalised and slowly died of its own utter uselessness.

 

[danielravennest]

So while the dominant internal culture still may be German, there is no such thing like a pure America, Japanase, German or French car any longer; we just choose to still view it that way.

We have a Mercedes factory in Alabama. Is it an American or German car?

 

[Chin Rey]

One last thought about nationalised car companies and other such things. When we in the UK argue against it, it's because we've seen it.
In fact it's a national joke. British Leyland.

BL was the parent company of just about every british car you've ever (or never) heard of. Jaguar, Triumph, Austin, Morris, Mini, MG, Landrover. A great sprawling mess of a company, our government even implemented import quotas to try to make us buy more Leyland cars. It collapsed and was nationalised and slowly died of its own utter uselessness.

 

[Myficals]

The wet dreams of some Brexiteers are really something... what do they want next, an absolute monarchy again?

Bluntly, yes.

 

[Beebo Brink]

No economy has ever been fully self sufficient nor will be, trade goes back even to the old Egyptians...

Oh dear, you have a somewhat truncated view of human history. We've had trading networks so much longer than that, stretching back 150,000 years.
Trade - Wikipedia

 

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

A short message from the CEO of Airbus about what might happen in the case of a no deal Brexit - namely Airbus moving their plants out of the UK:


Some just might call it fearmongering, others something to be concerned about...

 

[Tris]

....
lots of stupid things
...

So, basically you dream of a system, where every country is self-sufficient, all the people are happy because they support their local manufacturers and everything foreign is kept out of the borderies of the country ?

Back to the "good old" days of the GDR ?
Or maybe follow the example of modern China, which effectivly does exactly what you are proposing here ?
Or do you want to make the world more like Individual-1 wants it to be, but with "Germany 1st" and "Macht Deutschland wieder groß" hats ?

Well, it would be nice if your hatred of the capitalistic world wouldn't make you blind to reality.

I for one i'm glad that i live in a world where i can choose what i buy from where i want to buy it. I can get everything i NEED from anywhere for a reasonable price.
And i really do NOT want to live in a country like the GDR or China or in a Trumpist dystopia.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

And Sony moved its European HQ from the UK to Amsterdam, the Netherlands:

Sony moves HQ from Britain amid no‑deal Brexit fears

And David Davis, former Brexit minister, is on a German payroll of a metal working company as board member and pro-Brexit JCB:


By the way the Twitter timeline of Anthony Glees is quite interesting:

Anthony Glees (@AnthonyGlees) | Twitter