The Russia-Ukraine War has begun

[CronoCloud Creeggan]

That's totally silly and cray-cray. Russia doesn't have the Navy or transport capabilities to invade UK. Or the ability to get any such navy ships past any other NATO countries they would go by. If Russia is having troubles with defeating Ukraine, there is no way they'd stand a chance with the UK...which has very capable friends.

Russian media is just trying to bluster their way out of admitting that Russia would be a paper tiger no one would give a damn about if they didn't have their nukes. Seriously, without their nukes, the Russians would have already been driven out of Ukraine and NATO forces would be in Russia to put an end to Putin once and for all. And they know that and they're having that paranoid "The West hates and looks down on Russia" moment. Given the choice, the West would rather not care about Russia at all. Just sell their natural resources and keep their soldiers inside Russia and stop sabre-rattling.

From the replies

Heh, tractors.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

That's a decision for President Zhirinovsky and the Ukrainian people and their representatives, no one else.

I see what you did there.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

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It makes me furious too. Don't try and force anyone to give up what you yourself would not be willing to give up.

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This also makes me mad - Putin is as much declaring war on his own people, sending them off to be killed, and making excuses to take their freedoms away.

On one hand, that's a little childish... but on the other, there is a long history of war propaganda being very silly... American WWII propaganda was a good example.

I think it's very likely that eventually peace will be negotiated in a way that lets Putin save some face... but only after their losses have been horrible. It's clear we can't appease him too early, or he'll just take more.

I want him to lose all the face - he doesn't deserve to save anything. As for the losses? Most of those people are people who do not want to -be- there, and no small number are not legally supposed to be sent out of Russia to even be fighting.

So, Fuck Putin with a ballista bolt. He's murdering people with this war; not only Ukrainians but his own people too.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

To my mind, the only people who have a say in any peace negotiations are the Ukrainians and the Russians. Ukraine is a sovereign state, and third parties have no business discussing how much of its territory it should cede to the Russians, and how many of its citizens it should abandon to deportation, rape, torture and murder, to save Putin's face.

De facto all countries which are supporting Ukraine right now have an indirect say in it, too. Because if Ukraine would start doing stuff they dislike they could withdraw that support.

If there should be real peace talks sometimes, what's at least going on plate again are

a) Donetsk/Luhansk
b) Crimea

and c) reparations.

For a) there were two agreements made before 2022 to bring peace into that region, Minsk-I and Minsk-II, to which all parties back then agreed to. Both sides didn't oblige to these agreements. Minsk-II basically was pulling out all troops and weapons, putting the region under observation of the OSCE, returning it back to Ukraine's influence and for Ukraine to change their constitution to give it much more autonomy until end of 2015. Nowadays Russia blames Ukraine for not abiding it, and vice versa. Given the fact that the population in these two areas is > 60% Russian there still might be some momentum in these regions which draws them to Russia. Question is how big this momentum still is; if it is still big enough then probably Ukraine can only say goodbye to these regions in the long run anyway, because otherwise there will be always inner tensions there. Question is really how the war has influenced the mind of these people.

b) The Russians will most likely insist on having the port in Sewastopol; Ukraine most likely will want to get Crimea back. Russians will be gritty about that Ukraine cut Crimea off the water supply after the annexion in 2014 by shutting down the only canal which ships drinking water to Crimea on the Ukrainian main land, so cutting off 2 million people from fresh water supply. Ukraine of course rightfully will be gritty about the annexion. A tough nut to crack.

And of course Ukraine will want to get refunds for the damages Russia made, question is if Russia will be willing to pay these or not. Because wording - Russia still calls it "special military operation", but reparations are only paid after a lost war.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

So, Fuck Putin with a ballista bolt. He's murdering people with this war; not only Ukrainians but his own people too.

They're not his people, not to him, they are colonies like he wants Ukraine and Eastern Europe to be.

 

[Free]

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

I want him to lose all the face - he doesn't deserve to save anything. As for the losses? Most of those people are people who do not want to -be- there, and no small number are not legally supposed to be sent out of Russia to even be fighting.

So, Fuck Putin with a ballista bolt. He's murdering people with this war; not only Ukrainians but his own people too.

Of course, but I was talking about what is likely to happen... not my dream punishment for such a wicked man.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Given the fact that the population in these two areas [ Donetsk/Luhansk] is > 60% Russian there still might be some momentum in these regions which draws them to Russia. Question is how big this momentum still is; if it is still big enough then probably Ukraine can only say goodbye to these regions in the long run anyway, because otherwise there will be always inner tensions there. Question is really how the war has influenced the mind of these people.

As I understand it, the issue of Russian vs Ukrainian speakers is often misunderstood in the West, in that it suggests there are two separate populations with different identities and interests.

Everything I've read on the subject, though, in books on the history of Ukraine and the Holodomor, and at the time of the Maidan revolution, and since the invasion from Ukrainians on Twitter, suggests to me that the distinction is more complex than that and in some ways not dissimilar to the position of Welsh vs English speakers in Wales.

In Wales, for historical reasons, many people in North and West Wales speak Welsh at home, even though they speak English perfectly well, while people in South Wales primarily speak English as their first language. That's because North and West Wales are predominantly rural, farming, communities, while South Wales and the Rhonda Valley saw a huge influx of workers from all over the UK in the C19th and early C20th, and English was the language they all had in common.

That doesn't mean the South Walians regard themselves as any less Welsh than the North Walians, even though they don't speak the language (while, as I understand it, pretty much everyone in Ukraine is bilingual, and it's simply a matter of what you choose to speak at home and with friends and family). It certainly doesn't mean they regard themselves as English, either!

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

As I understand it, the issue of Russian vs Ukrainian speakers is often misunderstood in the West, in that it suggests there are two separate populations with different identities and interests.

Everything I've read on the subject, though, in books on the history of Ukraine and the Holodomor, and at the time of the Maidan revolution, and since the invasion from Ukrainians on Twitter, suggests to me that the distinction is more complex than that and in some ways not dissimilar to the position of Welsh vs English speakers in Wales.

In Wales, for historical reasons, many people in North and West Wales speak Welsh at home, even though they speak English perfectly well, while people in South Wales primarily speak English as their first language. That's because North and West Wales are predominantly rural, farming, communities, while South Wales and the Rhonda Valley saw a huge influx of workers from all over the UK in the C19th and early C20th, and English was the language they all had in common.

That doesn't mean the South Walians regard themselves as any less Welsh than the North Walians, even though they don't speak the language (while, as I understand it, pretty much everyone in Ukraine is bilingual, and it's simply a matter of what you choose to speak at home and with friends and family). It certainly doesn't mean they regard themselves as English, either!

That's the impressions I have as well. Also, there is actually a fair bit of overlap between all the slavic languages, near as I can tell. Both from stories from my mom of her mother's slovak grandparents speaking conversationally with her polish neighbors, and from my own ability to pick up words in Ukrainian that overlap Czech and Polish words.

It almost feels more like the difference between British speakers of English and American 'English', but I'm still learning. I just know when I was working on learning Czech, I could ask my spouse for the Russian word and it would usually work.

 

[Tirellia]

This guy's analysis videos are well worth a look.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

As I understand it, the issue of Russian vs Ukrainian speakers is often misunderstood in the West, in that it suggests there are two separate populations with different identities and interests.

Yes, but there's also one important thing IMHO to know: Ukraine's presidents before Zelenskiy have always been either pro West - like Timoshenko - or more pro Russian.

And pro Russian presidents always had higher vote counts in Luhansk/Donetzk than pro Western.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[WolfEyes]

Love the oh so subtle flip off.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Russia says Tory MP’s son involved in killing Chechen commander in Ukraine

Adam Bisultanov reportedly killed on 26 May in clash with fighters including Ben Grant, son of MP Helen Grant

www.theguardian.com

Evernote link

 

[Innula Zenovka]

eta

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

It will just take our army a decade or so of re-equipment to be able to do so. So... yup. Germany attacking to Russia is definitely right around the next corner!

 

[Soen Eber]

It will just take our army a decade or so of re-equipment to be able to do so. So... yup. Germany attacking to Russia is definitely right around the next corner!

Yup. There you go again, invading and occupying any random beach chair you can find, throwing your towel over it as you queue for tropical drinks at the concession stand. Oh the humanity!

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

We could do far worse actually... by throwing Schlager parties whereever we are!!1!

 

[Soen Eber]

We could do far worse actually... by throwing Schlager parties whereever we are!!1!

I'm already afraid ...