Covid-19 vaccine thread

bubblesort

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Even if they've only been in office less than the vaccine production leadtime?
Yes! All of them! Even the ones I like. Even the ones who have been in office for only a couple of weeks. They are either bad actors, or they are too incompetent to deal with bad actors. Either way, they don't belong in government. Nobody in government at the federal or state level is innocent. They all need to be sent packing.
 

Aribeth Zelin

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Yes! All of them! Even the ones I like. Even the ones who have been in office for only a couple of weeks. They are either bad actors, or they are too incompetent to deal with bad actors. Either way, they don't belong in government. Nobody in government at the federal or state level is innocent. They all need to be sent packing.
We're not talking about a small town government here...

Even 100 years ago, it took time for the bad or good decisions of a federal official to affect anything. Its only been a month - you don't affect so many different entities instantly; and this is whether its people, organizations or even physical objects.

Much like the Fasicistization of the GOP has been going on for over 40 years now. That didn't happen instantly, either.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Yes! All of them! Even the ones I like. Even the ones who have been in office for only a couple of weeks. They are either bad actors, or they are too incompetent to deal with bad actors. Either way, they don't belong in government. Nobody in government at the federal or state level is innocent. They all need to be sent packing.
The main reason they're struggling in the US is that you don't have the sort of centralised planning and distribution network that most other places do, because the US doesn't have any sort of national health service -- a health service is about a great deal more than not having to pay for medical treatment, though that's a very important benefit, of course.

Another benefit is that it's a national system of which almost all hospitals, family doctors and pharmacies are a part, so the system is already there to coordinate at all levels. And while I don't know about other countries, in the UK we've had the Royal Logistics Corps running the logistics and distribution.

All our family doctors, hospitals, medical schools and so on are all already part of the emergency planning network, and while they obviously don't need telling they have to, it's part of their contract with the local healthcare commissioning agencies that they're involved.

Your state governors just don't have the sort of resources and organisational structure that we take for granted in most other wealthy counties.
 

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Yes! All of them! Even the ones I like. Even the ones who have been in office for only a couple of weeks. They are either bad actors, or they are too incompetent to deal with bad actors. Either way, they don't belong in government. Nobody in government at the federal or state level is innocent. They all need to be sent packing.
Trying too hard or not trying hard enough?
 

GoblinCampFollower

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Yes! All of them! Even the ones I like. Even the ones who have been in office for only a couple of weeks. They are either bad actors, or they are too incompetent to deal with bad actors. Either way, they don't belong in government. Nobody in government at the federal or state level is innocent. They all need to be sent packing.
Your sense of collective responsibility is totally incoherent to the point of insanity. You form long winded arguments for just incredibly oversimplified world views. I think according to your logic, we can write off the whole world as incompetent shills. It's amazing we haven't all died yet! What would you replace these people in government with? Magical unicorns? Blasting the job everyone else does isn't very productive when you have no real alternative plans.
 

bubblesort

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Your sense of collective responsibility is totally incoherent to the point of insanity. You form long winded arguments for just incredibly oversimplified world views. I think according to your logic, we can write off the whole world as incompetent shills. It's amazing we haven't all died yet! What would you replace these people in government with? Magical unicorns? Blasting the job everyone else does isn't very productive when you have no real alternative plans.
Constituent tolerance for incompetence is what got us here. It needs to stop. People are dying. They are gasping for air, suffocating slowly over days, as their organs slowly fail. They can't even properly say goodbye to loved ones. It's a national disgrace. In this situation, I don't care about blue or red, and you shouldn't, either. Government officials need to fail faster! Fast and hard, as a warning to any government officials who would dare fail us like this again, in the future. Whoever replaces the current class of incompetent fools will know that failure will be punished, and that's all it will take for them to get off their asses and do something about this.
 

Casey Pelous

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Constituent tolerance for incompetence is what got us here. It needs to stop. People are dying. They are gasping for air, suffocating slowly over days, as their organs slowly fail. They can't even properly say goodbye to loved ones. It's a national disgrace. In this situation, I don't care about blue or red, and you shouldn't, either. Government officials need to fail faster! Fast and hard, as a warning to any government officials who would dare fail us like this again, in the future. Whoever replaces the current class of incompetent fools will know that failure will be punished, and that's all it will take for them to get off their asses and do something about this.
Way to run cover for your boy The Former Guy whose "administration" created no plan for vaccine distribution.

You. Don't. Fool. Me.
 

bubblesort

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Way to run cover for your boy The Former Guy whose "administration" created no plan for vaccine distribution.

You. Don't. Fool. Me.
I had an administration? ROFLMAO, and I thought Q Anon was nuts.

I'm just an ordinary citizen, same as you. I just expect more from my government. You should, too.
 

Aribeth Zelin

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The speed in which something reacts to change is proportionate to its size; the bigger it is, the slower.
 
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bubblesort

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Your fallacy of choice is False Balance, hope that helps.
No, it's not, at all. Balance is not part of this argument. I, personally, don't care about balance. Others here are making ad hominem arguments (ad hominem has little to do with name calling, BTW). The argument others make here, that we should tolerate politician A and not politician B, is based on whether they happen to be republican or democrat. Party affiliation is a way to describe an individual, but has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Essentialism is a nice thought experiment, but in the end, it gets nothing done.

This argument I'm making is simple... we give people power and money to run the government effectively. To do that, they need to avoid things like half a million dead Americans. They also need to distribute vaccines, that we already paid for, in a reasonable manner, to end the crisis as efficiently as possible. They failed. All of them failed. So they need to be removed.

I propose we treat government officials the way Bezos treats people in his work houses. If a line worker does not perform, they get thrown out in the street. If the manager doesn't make them perform, they get thrown out on the street, too. Anybody who does not pull their weight gets thrown out.

I'm not asking for anything insane. The ask is extremely reasonable. The database of the locations and delivery status of all vaccines absolutely exists. You think the technocrats who run the American medical oligarchy don't track every little detail of logistical data that touches their institutions? No way. They have it. All I'm saying is put a public, free API on that database, so we know where the vaccines are, and then build a central sign up sheet for it, where our sign ups get routed to vaccine distribution sites. That could be done in days. The only reason why it's not done is that there is no political will on the state and federal levels.

There is no will because we, as constituents, have not communicated clearly enough that we are tired of being hospitalized, bankrupted, and killed by this pandemic. We need to put the fear of god into these politicians. If they aren't panicking, they aren't listening to us. You seem to think that we have more power than we do. As constituents, we can't line item review every bill. We elect officials to do that for us. In other words, the levers of power we have access to are big, clunky levers, that only seem to respond to big emotions, like anger. Angry gets shit done.
 

Sid

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From the Dutch broadcaster NOS:
(translation by Google)

For the first time export of AstraZeneca vaccines from EU stopped
Sources confirm reports about this to the NOS.

Italy has blocked exports of 250,000 doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine to Australia. As of last month, the EU export mechanism came into effect, requiring companies that have a supply contract with the EU to report all vaccine exports to national authorities and the EU first. National governments can therefore hold back exports.

That system was instituted after AstraZeneca announced that the EU would receive fewer vaccines than previously expected. This led to a heated conflict between the European Commission and the pharmaceutical industry.

According to sources, Italy has decided to stop the export of the vaccine doses because it would jeopardize the supply guarantees to the European Union. AstraZeneca has not yet responded to the blockade.

Production in Leiden, among others
The AstraZeneca vaccine is produced within the European Union in the Netherlands and Belgium. There are also two production locations in the United Kingdom. The vaccines are bottled in Italy.

European Commissioner Breton (Internal Market) yesterday visited the Dutch producer, the Leiden biotech company Halix. AstraZeneca CEO Pascal Soriot has previously said that the vaccines made in Leiden are partly destined for the United Kingdom, with which the pharmaceutical company may be in violation of the EU contract. The European Commissioner did not want to say much about that issue yesterday.
 
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Argent Stonecutter

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No, it's not, at all. Balance is not part of this argument. I, personally, don't care about balance. Others here are making ad hominem arguments (ad hominem has little to do with name calling, BTW). The argument others make here, that we should tolerate politician A and not politician B, is based on whether they happen to be republican or democrat.
The only argument I've made is whether they have been in office long enough to have had an effect on the outcome, and you responded with another both-sides argument. Which is a logical fallacy because its completely unrelated to my point.

I don't care if you want to quibble about which logical fallacy you're using, and repeating it again doesn't make it any less a fallacy.
 

bubblesort

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The only argument I've made is whether they have been in office long enough to have had an effect on the outcome, and you responded with another both-sides argument. Which is a logical fallacy because its completely unrelated to my point.

I don't care if you want to quibble about which logical fallacy you're using, and repeating it again doesn't make it any less a fallacy.
I don't understand where you got that from, but I know informal logic can be confusing, so I'll try to explain this again...

I never mentioned sides, at all. Elected officials at the state and federal level are a class. I recognize no sides within this class of people. They are simply people who have been given power, and who have failed to use that power to protect your best interests. I think you should help send them back to the private sector for that.