How COVID-19 is affecting society

Innula Zenovka

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Doesn't affect me, but I can't imagine I would ever have risked a family Christmas under pandemic conditions, or that my family would have wanted me to.
 
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Kamilah Hauptmann

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I guess this is what happens when you treat healthcare as a profit-making business -- you tned to appoint CEOs with experience in running profitable businesses, however little they know about healthcare

Backpfeifengesicht
German compound word for a 'face that should be slapped'


backpfeifengesicht
From German: Backpfeifengesicht
A face that deserves to be slapped ( - or in the case of a Hackfresse - punched as hard as humanly possible and/or hit with a chair).

See also: Sean Hannity
 

Jolene Benoir

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A heartbreaking conversation with a doctor from Hennepin County Medical Center, downtown Minneapolis.


I am going for the test later this evening. I spent around 4 hrs yesterday attempting to make the appt as testing sites are being overwhelmed. I was exposed last Friday, I think, by a man who did not wear his mask in an indoors public location, despite our governor's mandate for that. I began feeling sick Sunday with high fever, severe headache, congestion, weakness. I have spent the time sleeping as much as possible away from family. I DO think it is just ordinary flu but I need to get tested for the sake of family that live with me.

My sister's mother (yes, that sister) and her two aunts have tested positive and are in quarantine. They all went grocery shopping together on Nov 3. One of the three is very, very ill. She had to be taken to the hospital yesterday, where they gave her a saline drip, due to severe dehydration, something for nausea and x-rayed her lungs. Covid is in her lungs. They did send her home, but naturally, she is someone that is at severe risk. All three are in their seventies.

There is a fragile peace made, for now, between my sister and I, so I have not brought up whether or not she still is thinking that Covid is a big nothing, exaggerated by Democrats to hurt this perceived economic thriving that Trump gave us. I did ask her if she remembered me telling her at the start of covid that fall/winter was going to get worse. She replied, yes.

ETA: The reason I was out last Friday was to pick up some last minute things for Thanksgiving, which we were spending here at home. I am normally the one who does everything, but this year, since I will not have the results back on my test, likely, I will be quarantining, upstairs.
 
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Jolene Benoir

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Because of course she did, even though she said that she would not let her religious beliefs affect any decisions. Good thing we have the vaccine(s) on the way or midnight mass and others Christmas services will be deadly. Still might be.

 
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Innula Zenovka

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Because of course she did, even though she said that she would not let her religious beliefs affect any decisions. Good thing we have the vaccine(s) on the way or midnight mass and others Christmas services will be deadly. Still might be.


At the moment, if I properly understand the explanation, the debate is about whether the limits may be imposed before the lower courts have had opportunity to consider them, so it's not yet a final decision.

Seems to me not unreasonable that, since the US Constitution protects freedom of religion and freedom of assembly, people should be able to turn to the courts to enforce these rights, but I do have difficulty understanding what criteria the US courts use (which wasn't the immediate issue here). I understand the tests we use in the UK and in the rest of Europe -- the restrictions should be reasonable and proportionate, and the least restrictive available method of protecting the rights of other citizens and the government's legitimate interest in protecting public health during the emergency -- but the US criteria seem rather different.

For example, this presumably makes sense to the Supreme Court:

The court explained that Cuomo’s order does not appear to be neutral, but instead “single out houses of worship for especially harsh treatment.” For example, although a synagogue or a church in a red zone is limited to 10 people at a service, there are no limits on how many people a nearby “essential” business – which can include acupuncture or a camp ground – can admit.
That seems to me irrelevant, since the risks to public health posed by people attending a large act of collective communal worship inside a large single room dedicated to that purpose seem completely different from those posed by attending an acupuncture studio or a campground, but US law is clearly different.
 
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Jolene Benoir

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At the moment, if I properly understand the explanation, the debate is about whether the limits may be imposed before the lower courts have had opportunity to consider them, so it's not yet a final decision.

Seems to me not unreasonable that, since the US Constitution protects freedom of religious and freedom of assembly, people should be able to turn to the courts to enforce these rights, but I do have difficulty understanding what criteria the US courts use (which wasn't the immediate issue here). I understand the tests we use in the UK and in the rest of Europe -- the restrictions should be reasonable and proportionate, and the least restrictive available method of protecting the rights of other citizens and the government's legitimate interest in protecting public health during the emergency -- but the US criteria seem rather different.

For example, this presumably makes sense to the Supreme Court:



That seems to me irrelevant, since the risk to public health posed by people attending a large act of collective communal worship inside a large single room dedicated to that purpose seem completely different from those posed by attending an acupuncture studio or a campground, but US law is clearly different.
Thank you. I think that one reason that churches were perhaps targeted more for limits on large gatherings is what we saw in the early stages of the pandemic; that of the effect of singing, in close quarters, upon the transmission of the virus.

Indeed, we have freedom of religion and it is difficult to reconcile during a public health crisis like this, but early admonitions to the public and churches to please limit their size did not appear to be embraced by more than a few "stubborn" churches. In fact, some were openly defiant upon any conditions whatsoever. Not coincidentally, there seems to have been a fairly large overlap between that and those that refuse to wear masks. To be fair, a great many responsible churches HAVE done the right thing and turned to offering their services online.

Christmas services, alongside Easter services are among the most attended services all year and yes there will be a lot of singing. People that don't even go to church the rest of the year attend on those days. As long as we continue to have people who refuse to wear their masks, and we will, those services will be the source of many completely unnecessary transmissions.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Thank you. I think that one reason that churches were perhaps targeted more for limits on large gatherings is what we saw in the early stages of the pandemic; that of the effect of singing, in close quarters, upon the transmission of the virus.

Indeed, we have freedom of religion and it is difficult to reconcile during a public health crisis like this, but early admonitions to the public and churches to please limit their size did not appear to be embraced by more than a few "stubborn" churches. In fact, some were openly defiant upon any conditions whatsoever. Not coincidentally, there seems to have been a fairly large overlap between that and those that refuse to wear masks. To be fair, a great many responsible churches HAVE done the right thing and turned to offering their services online.

Christmas services, alongside Easter services are among the most attended services all year and yes there will be a lot of singing. People that don't even go to church the rest of the year attend on those days. As long as we continue to have people who refuse to wear their masks, and we will, those services will be the source of many completely unnecessary transmissions.
Under our current restrictions, places that must close include

  • places of worship, apart from for the purposes of independent prayer, for funerals or funeral commemorative events, to broadcast an act of worship, to provide essential voluntary services or urgent public support services, for registered childcare, and to host permitted gatherings.

Recently, some evangelical Christian groups have tried to defy the restrictions and have had their activities shut down by the police, so presumably we'll soon see the lawfulness of the restrictions tested in court.

To my mind, it's a difficult question that requires detailed and dispassionate analysis on a case-by-case basis.

There's a strong presumption that people should be free to assemble, whether to participate in acts of worship or for secular purposes, just as there's a strong presumption that people should be free to worship, or not, as they please, but it's accepted that these rights may be limited or even suspended, though only under very limited and specific circumstance, and for as short a time as possible.

The justification here is the government is seeking to protect public health during a pandemic, which obviously it has both a right and a duty to do, so the question then becomes the very specific one, whether the threat to public health posed by organised public worship is so great the government is justified in restricting to this extent, and if it is, then are the specific restrictions proportionate to the specific threat posed, and is there no less burdensome way of achieving the goal of protecting the public?

That's a question that can't be answered without knowing the case in detail.
 
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Jolene Benoir

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Freedom of religion has nothing to do with freedom to hold superspreader events on a weekly basis.
The right to bear arms doesn't meant the right to shoot up schools, either, but some folks want all the rights without any responsibility.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Freedom of religion has nothing to do with freedom to hold superspreader events on a weekly basis.
Right, which is why cases need to be considered dispassionately and carefully analysed.

What exactly do the various religious organisations want to do that the State of New York says they can't, why does the State of New York want to stop them from doing it, is the prohibition reasonable and proportionate, and is there no less oppressive way of achieving the desired outcome?

To my mind, it's not going to be difficult for New York to make their case, but it is important that it's subject to judicial review.
 

Aribeth Zelin

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Right, which is why cases need to be considered dispassionately and carefully analysed.

What exactly do the various religious organisations want to do that the State of New York says they can't, why does the State of New York want to stop them from doing it, is the prohibition reasonable and proportionate, and is there no less oppressive way of achieving the desired outcome?

To my mind, it's not going to be difficult for New York to make their case, but it is important that it's subject to judicial review.
My thought is, that, if people don't come into church, the churches don't make money. Since some churches are seriously big business..... well... its not about faith but about greed.