The Techies and their Axes vs. the Shoppers and fashionistas, maybe we can work together.

Sid

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As a customer I see a picture of an outfit, I read if it is made for the classic avatar (among others), I see the permissions and I see the price.
That is about all the info I have. I don't want to be inspector Clouseau, and chase polygon or texture offenders, I want a nice outfit. The rest is not my beer.
I'm with Penny, it is up to Linden Lab to decide what is allowed and what not. And I can totally understand from a business point of view
that they are more concerned about the steady income they generate, than about changing something that functioned for more than a decade, with the possibility to chase the wrong people away.
 
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Spirits Rising

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Being honest and blunt: While the base allowances are indeed with Linden Lab, no user should be putting pressure on them to add in restrictions - period.

They have a horrible track record where it comes to being sensible and quite frankly the ideas put forth by some users boil down to wanting to wholly remove amateurs and hobbyists.

Educate content creators - the ones who will listen anyway - and move the fuck on.
 

Vaelissa Cortes

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Since my early days of Second Life I have tried present solutions to common issues. Most older posters probably know of my shape guides and related posts, but I have hardly said a word on that topic for years. More recently most of my posts have been related to the importance of efficient content, but whatever the topic, presentation is something I have long realized was key to appeal. Sometimes I haven't done my best, but I do try to be aware of how what I say will be taken.

You can't just tell people to do something, you can give all the good reasons you want, but if it feels pushed onto them they will reject it. People don't like being told what to do, especially in a hostile tone. The key is presenting your argument and evidence in a friendly manner so people believe they are the ones deciding to make the change themselves. They need clear incentive for that light to go off in their head for them to realize, "oh hey, that's a really good point, I want to do that too!". This is something that as CronoCloud points out, many, usually male, techy types just don't understand, and there is no getting through to them. As for myself, I am female in both lives, I love fashion and playing dress up, but I also have some very techy hobbies. I understand where the tech folks are coming from, but also understand why somebody would be perfectly willing pay 5k for a mesh head.

Triangle counts, mod rights, all of that doesn't matter to most folks, nor should it realistically. In an ideal world, the average consumer wouldn't ever have to think about any of that, and it is a perfectly reasonable expectation to just want to log in, shop, and hang out taking pretty pictures, where your biggest worry is where to get shoes that will go with your new dress you just grabbed from Collabor88.

However, due to its very nature Second Life has a high learning curve, so users, especially fashionistas, will have to get comfortable with quite a few things if they want to get the most out of their experience. From what I have seen, the previously mentioned techy male types are just as clueless, and have just as hard of a time (or harder) learning applier HUDs, relays, and various layers, as the fashionistas have with triangle counts, texture bloat and all that sort of thing. One group isn't any better than the other, it just comes down to practical interests.

As it has been mentioned, the true blame lies with both Linden Lab and content creators. Consumers should ideally try to make wise purchases, yes, but they aren't the ones who should be scolded. This is all stuff that has been said before though, and one the reasons I have not been very active on any forum, or even bothered to get a forum avatar until now (lol presentation), is because talking about the same stuff over and over again doesn't make any difference. Which brings me to my main reason for posting...

When I hear Penny talk about camera positions, I'm nodding my head.

When Vaelissa talks about avatar proportions, I'm taking notes.

When Niran complains about resource usage, I'm all "hell yeah!"

Could you please just pull a Voltron and become one giant SL Improvement Advocate?
I think creators and consumers lack a quick, easily digestible guide for shopping or creating especially if they're not forum readers. Some quick videos wouldn't hurt too, eg to show how you identify good or bad meshes while you shop. One of the things I learned from SLU was that "people won't read things" which is why I'm thinking cheat sheets/video with a longer guide could help overcome that. Something snazzy enough to persuade fashion bloggers to post them up with linkage.
I realise complexity is erm complex, but is it humanely possible to make a guide to good/bad practice for creators to refer to, and also a seperate quick guide for shopping? Even if it required say a set of cheat sheets on the creator side, covering the main steps involved in making mesh and what you should or shouldn't do. I'm sure something like that would be understandable by consumers too, and giving them the info might be handy so they have the terminology etc handy to talk about complexity without feeling shut out by the techy language.
Quoted all these since they're all relevant to the same thing. There are several projects in the works from mostly familiar names, which include comprehensive guides for creators and shoppers alike that Oz himself said he will distribute to the proper people in the lab for official guidelines and such. A stand alone resource site is being laid out too for things like an updated shape guide (finally!), and various optimization guides and tools.

There's also quite a nice viewer with useful tools for consumers to easily identify good and bad content, and stuff for creators to more easily optimize their work. It's popped up here and on SLU from a few different users, the main thing most have probably seen is the extended information for objects and avatars, and the ability to independently derender performance impacting avatars based on complexity, triangle count, and textures:





The challenge is making all of the above projects work and flow together in an easily accessable, presentable manner that gives people incentive to care, otherwise it's all a waste of time; presentation and polish is absolutely everything. I wasn't even going to reply here, and I hate to come across as some kind of a tease, but wanted to put it out there that there are people working working on the stuff several of you have brought up, but it is all rather overwhelming, and at the end of the day, all we want to really do is just log in and relax like anyone else.
 
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Vaelissa Cortes

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When I look at high count males, it gets very confusing for me, because I don't see anything about the avatar that should cause high counts. This is puzzling of course. Is it that designers don't invest as much effort in optimizing their designs for men? It seems likely to me.

Next time you're in a group, look at people's rendering scores and make your own assessment.:loveflag:
Textures are typically the main factor here, second by triangle counts. Complexity is very flawed, so much so it is borderline useless for telling what is actually causing the main performance issues.
 

Penny Patton

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Getting to the point where you do not care about preserving our shared space requires sociopathic indifference or active hatred for the people around you.
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and disagree that it boils down to sociopathic indifference. Some are like this, sure, but they're in the minority.
LL does not provide the users with adequate tools to manage their resource usage. That combined with a general lack of understanding of how 3D rendering works, places the entire concept of managing resource use way over the heads of most SL users.

Case in point, ARC is not great for measuring resource use. Sure, if your ARC is high, that is pretty much always bad. However, because it barely takes texture use into consideration, you can have a low, low ARC yet still bring the average videocard to its knees. And LL provides no tools to manage texture use. None. The average SL user has no idea at all how much texture memory they're using. And even if they did realize their texture use was high, good luck in figuring out how to lower it! There's no tools for that, either.

Firestorm is culpable in this, too, as they deliberately keep tools out of the hands of users because some of their devs absolutely fit the sociopath template you describe. However, ultimately it always comes back to LL because not only do they not provide adequate tools but they also do not provide adequate information to their users, which allows users who really should know better to hide behind willful ignorance.

Linden Lab chooses to remain silent on issues like texture use, never correcting users who spout absolute nonsense on their own official forums about how "textures don't use memory", or "modern videocards have so much memory that textures aren't an issue anymore". (These are claims actual SL users have made on the official forums. I have never, ever seen a Linden correct anyone on these points.) I've had a person on the official forums compare me to Kim Jong Un, Hitler, and make racist comments about me being a Jihadist terrorist, for trying to explain how texture memory works, and when I called that person a troll, LL removed my comment and slapped me with a warning. I still remember Prok claiming, on the official forum, that I was "trying to turn the entire SL userbase into pedophiles using math" because of my comments on avatar size. Because comparing someone to some of history's greatest monsters for explaining about how videocards work, or calling someone a pedophile for explaining how maybe making all the avatars 9' tall isn't the smartest move, is perfectly acceptable on the LL forums, but calling someone who acts like that on the forum a troll is against community standards. LL, through their own incompetence, is actively encouraging a culture of stupidity among their users.

So you can't lay the blame entirely on the users. Or even mostly on the users. This is a problem Linden Lab created. One they could have easily avoided. One they could have solved at any point in the past 17 years, but they've instead chosen to let the problem get worse.
 

CronoCloud Creeggan

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Complexity: 90383, 45487 if I take off my wristwatch.
Jewelry is my bane. I know ARC isn't really an accurate signifier, but it's the one I have and I try to not let it get to high. But JEWELRY. I've got some sets that are just HORRIBLE. Pre-mesh jewelry, mostly. But it's weird, I've got sets that are fine and sets that are horrible from the same designer. And it is damn hard to keep ARC under 100000 with a full parure set including tiara.

There are some very high complexity mesh dicks out there. My highest ever witnessed complexity rating was coming from a man with a badly optimized mesh penis with hundreds of transparent dick sections for different movements.
Head explodes.

I'm not going to pretend to be anything other than a linux geek, but this week I wondered ifwe need cheat sheets for this stuff, with a more detailed guide available somewhere too that explains things more fully/links to handy resources.
We all need that, and more. In different levels of explanation.

One of the things I learned from SLU was that "people won't read things" which is why I'm thinking cheat sheets/video with a longer guide could help overcome that. Something snazzy enough to persuade fashion bloggers to post them up with linkage. Get the same distributable in world - if you could get that information into an info pack, drop it in a wee kiosk and it spread round the grid a bit, it could help educate creators/consumers who don't forum regularly.
That's a good idea, especially if you could get one of the big-time fashionistas like Strawberry Singh to promote it.

I remember following one of Penny's tutorials (I think) about making a nicely scaled avi and also the one she did about camera positioning,
You know what I want, the ability to switch between various camera presets with a click instead of having to manually change them. Then I might use other variant settings like Penny's in some places. Heck, include Penny's as one of the sets one can choose from the start.

I get the impression that some creators try and model details that they could have done through texturing/materials instead, but they may not have dissected builds to see what can be achieved.
Yeah, I'm thinking that too.

you don't have enough alts. It's all for flickr / blogs anyways.
Ha.

As a customer I see a picture of an outfit, I read if it is made for the classic avatar (among others), I see the permissions and I see the price. That is about all the info I have. I'm with Penny, it is up to Linden Lab to decide what is allowed and what not. A
I personally would LOVE to have more info. Heck I want to know if the designer used a template and who actually made that template.

In an ideal world, the average consumer wouldn't ever have to think about any of that, and it is a perfectly reasonable expectation to just want to log in, shop, and hang out taking pretty pictures, where your biggest worry is where to get shoes that will go with your new dress you just grabbed from Collabor88.
Yeah.

There are several projects in the works from mostly familiar names, which include comprehensive guides for creators and shoppers alike that Oz himself said he will distribute to the proper people in the lab for official guidelines and such. A stand alone resource site is being laid out too for things like an updated shape guide (finally!), and various optimization guides and tools.
Excellent, I'm glad to hear that.

I wasn't even going to reply here, and I hate to come across as some kind of a tease, but wanted to put it out there that there are people working working on the stuff several of you have brought up, but it is all rather overwhelming, and at the end of the day, all we want to really do is just log in and relax like anyone else.
I am VERY glad you did, thank you.

Textures are typically the main factor here, second by triangle counts. Complexity is very flawed, so much so it is borderline useless for telling what is actually causing the main performance issues.
My guess is that it was textures, considering that geometry tends to rez first, and textures later. I've seen that certain content tends to be slower. (I've noticed a hair brand that seems to stay grey at a distance till you zoom in). And I've been to stores in just the past couple of days where the store rezzes in instantly, but the actual vendors take much more time. Enough time that I thought that perhaps the store was empty and had been relocated. (Cynful)

However, because it barely takes texture use into consideration, you can have a low, low ARC yet still bring the average videocard to its knees.
Vendor textures, I've seen vendors especially "hanger" type vendors with alpha bring a card to it's knees. Mayfair (Mon Tissu and Celoe) did it to me some years back in the early mesh era. (Partly it was because I'd altered MeshMaxCurrentRequests based on fashionista recommendations). Vendors took forever to rez and load and I'd crash immediately upon leaving. Every...time.

Linden Lab chooses to remain silent on issues like texture use, never correcting users who spout absolute nonsense on their own official forums about how "textures don't use memory", or "modern videocards have so much memory that textures aren't an issue anymore".
You should tell them..."then why does the client warn you about degraded performance when you attach your Catwa head HUD?" And those HUDS that come with the Catwa heads are pretty much the ONLY thing that gives that warning to me. Textures do use memory and system I/O when they're cached. You go to some store with a bajillion vendors and you will hear your hard drive thrash caching textures. And while modern video cards are better at handling SL, we've all seen all sorts of issues come from textures even on cards with 4GB or more!

I still remember Prok claiming, on the official forum, that I was "trying to turn the entire SL userbase into pedophiles using math" because of my comments on avatar size.
LOLwut? head explodes again. WTF! I mean that's cray cray. Because if everyone shrinks down, then that becomes the new normal and the kid avatars like Marianne McCann would just shrink lower than that to maintain proportions and no one would mistake the formerly giant adult and now shorter avatars for kids.

So you can't lay the blame entirely on the users. Or even mostly on the users. This is a problem Linden Lab created. One they could have easily avoided. One they could have solved at any point in the past 17 years, but they've instead chosen to let the problem get worse.
Nods...and not just this problem but other ones as well.

That's impressive hyperbole even for them.
Yeah, that's like really impressive amounts of crazy , even for SL's resident batshit mainland land baron lady...I mean gentleman. Impressive even by fashionista standards of cray cray.
 
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Kamilah Hauptmann

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Jewelry is my bane. I know ARC isn't really an accurate signifier, but it's the one I have and I try to not let it get to high. But JEWELRY. I've got some sets that are just HORRIBLE. Pre-mesh jewelry, mostly. But it's weird, I've got sets that are fine and sets that are horrible from the same designer. And it is damn hard to keep ARC under 100000 with a full parure set including tiara.
:word:

I got a couple things that were over 50K complexity, blinked, and analyzed them deeper, texture use seemed okay, just lots of geometry. So I took them off and on again a few times to observe my client FPS, which didn't so much as blink, so I wear em anyway but take them off in a crowd.
 
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Myficals

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You know what I want, the ability to switch between various camera presets with a click instead of having to manually change them. Then I might use other variant settings like Penny's in some places. Heck, include Penny's as one of the sets one can choose from the start.
Firestorm at least, has preset slots accessible via the Camera Controls floater. By default, there's a regular camera, an over the shoulder, and a reverse lead view. Each of them is editable separately by the usual method. I have my own variation on Penny's settings in place of the over shoulder view that I use as my default, but I still have access to the standard camera if I want it for some reason.
 

Vaelissa Cortes

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You know what I want, the ability to switch between various camera presets with a click instead of having to manually change them. Then I might use other variant settings like Penny's in some places. Heck, include Penny's as one of the sets one can choose from the start.
Firestorm has the presets thing as Myficals mentioned but it is limited to editing existing ones, the WIP viewer I brought up in my post above does a better job, and for something usable now, Black Dragon offers custom savable presets too.

And I've been to stores in just the past couple of days where the store rezzes in instantly, but the actual vendors take much more time. Enough time that I thought that perhaps the store was empty and had been relocated. (Cynful)
You should tell them..."then why does the client warn you about degraded performance when you attach your Catwa head HUD?" And those HUDS that come with the Catwa heads are pretty much the ONLY thing that gives that warning to me. Textures do use memory and system I/O when they're cached. You go to some store with a bajillion vendors and you will hear your hard drive thrash caching textures. And while modern video cards are better at handling SL, we've all seen all sorts of issues come from textures even on cards with 4GB or more!
Vendors are notoriously bad texture offenders, especially at events. This month's Collabor88 has 9.3GBs from vendors alone.

As for Catwa's HUDs, they are really, really bad too.



Nearly 168MBs in textures just for this one HUD. Many users have the HUD worn at all times too, so that is 168MBs they can't use for anything else. The sad thing is that it is super easy to massively optimize it, and the heads, but I don't see that happening.
 
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Pamela

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I don’t always meet the standards Penny and ChinRey set, but they set goals I aspire to. For example, all my content has been scaled down over time, even tho I know my smaller scale items have lost me some business. I build for camera angles like Penny’s, which has also cost me business. I have redone LODs to improve the way things look at a distance, which sometimes costs me LI. I ruthlessly delete any triangles I can.I have paid closer attention to texture size and alpha channels.

So I am grateful for those who have nudged me in the right direction, a direction that ultimately will be better for customers, even if I can’t say I have reached the highest standards.

I think this is probably the middle ground where most consciencous creators work — as opposed to those who just download some high poly things off the internet and call it a day, as some popular sellers have been found to do.
 

Brenda Archer

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You know what I want, the ability to switch between various camera presets with a click instead of having to manually change them. Then I might use other variant settings like Penny's in some places. Heck, include Penny's as one of the sets one can choose from the start.
I found this on the Marketplace and it works really well for me, constantly switching between my Petite and my main avatar, which is 5’ 7” and for which I use the “Kid” setting. https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/AC-Camera-focus-HUD-V22-Box/7391674

I personally would LOVE to have more info. Heck I want to know if the designer used a template and who actually made that template.
I would love that too. Often I buy something and would like to texture it myself to have another color.
 
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EmpressOfCommunism

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I personally would LOVE to have more info. Heck I want to know if the designer used a template and who actually made that template.


.
This can already be done, although it is not intiuitive or built into the system. It would require a template mesh user to make the mesh they've used have a prim connected to it with the finished product name, but leaving the actual mesh with its original name and creator. When I use template mesh, I generally do this for that exact reason.

Unfortunately, it requires the end product to be modify enabled. A mixture of vanity and stigma prevents this. IMO, its ridiculous. Nobody yells at a silk screener for not personally weaving their T-shirts, nor at a collage artist for not personally printing an entire magazine to use as their art. But, the gossipy "so and so uses TEMPLATE MESH!" persists and drives people to think of it as a shameful practice.

I've even seen template mesh compared to selling a knock off handbag! I think the ridiculous stigma of it is what warps people into thinking purchasing models off the internet and uploading them without optimization constitutes "original mesh". The irony being that uploading someone else's mesh and using it without permission or an SL-friendly license *is* in fact like creating and selling a knock off designer purse, more so then using a template specifically for SL to create a product!
 
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Vaelissa Cortes

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This can already be done, although it is not intiuitive or built into the system. It would require a template mesh user to make the mesh they've used have a prim connected to it with the finished product name, but leaving the actual mesh with its original name and creator. When I use template mesh, I generally do this for that exact reason.

Unfortunately, it requires the end product to be modify enabled.
Unless I've misunderstood, you can still see objects from other creators in the linkset even if it is no mod.