The Israeli Goverment Has Become The Monster

Cristiano

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Does Israel "get a pass," though? More so than the KSA or some of the other Gulf states? There are plenty of other territories artificially created by the former colonial powers during the last century ithat have pretty appalling records but the western press hardly pays them any attention. Are you particularly well-up on what's happening in Sudan and Ethiopia, or the Central African Republic, or Myanmar? I'm not. (Before anyone objects, I'm not saying "What about..?" I'm simply contrasting the amount of media coverage and political attention that events in various countries receive -- simply by reading the mainstream British press I'm considerably better informed about politics in Israel than I am about politics in Belgium or Finland).

Apart from its strategic significance, along with the KSA, as a regional superpower and client state of the US, I think one reason Israel plays such a large role in the consciousness of both Christian-majority and Muslim-majority countries is that Jerusalem and the Holy Land in general play such a large part in the historical and religious imagination of both groups (crusaders seem to mean a lot to the US Christian right when they're not cosplaying in their imaginations as ancient Israelites, and Blake's Jerusalem is pretty much my country's unofficial national anthem) and that both Christianity and Islam have had complicated and problematic (to say the least) relationships with Jews since both newer religions first started.

I don't know enough about Islam to comment, but both European Christianity and (since the Enlightenment) secular European discourse have been obsessed with Jews and Israel, on and off, for over 1000 years. Given that history it's hardly surprising that Israel features largely in current consciousness, particularly since there's a very large constituency in the US that seems to see the US as some form of Biblical Israel.
What doesn't figure in a lot of people's consciousness is that they are monsters slaughtering people, but its Muslims mostly they are killing while also stealing their land so they don't give a fuck. You have talked in previous posts about not acknowledging the actual attacks against Jews enough unrelated to Israel specifically. I don't think anyone should be attacked or killed, but asking for stronger denouncements from people being slaughtered by the thousands weekly since Oct 7 (and before, that did not occur in a vacuum) and those wanting the killing to stop is a strange stand to take. "Biblical Israel" also drives the whole absurd "chosen people" bullshit. There is no such thing.
 

Mona Eberhardt

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What doesn't figure in a lot of people's consciousness is that they are monsters slaughtering people, but its Muslims mostly they are killing while also stealing their land so they don't give a fuck. You have talked in previous posts about not acknowledging the actual attacks against Jews enough unrelated to Israel specifically. I don't think anyone should be attacked or killed, but asking for stronger denouncements from people being slaughtered by the thousands weekly since Oct 7 (and before, that did not occur in a vacuum) and those wanting the killing to stop is a strange stand to take. "Biblical Israel" also drives the whole absurd "chosen people" bullshit. There is no such thing.
Interestingly enough, we who are against genocide are demanded to respect a genocidal ethnotheocracy's "right to exist", but our accusers never condemn their beloved Apartheid's crimes. Speaks volumes of their moral fibre.

 

Mona Eberhardt

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No, I won't recognise any "right to exist" for a vile, genocidal ethnotheocracy that only attacks everyone around it, blackmails and bribes hundreds of politicians around the globe, and has installed a death penalty without recourse or appeal for a specific minority. This is the very definition of a Nazi state, and guess what you become by defending it?
 

Innula Zenovka

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What doesn't figure in a lot of people's consciousness is that they are monsters slaughtering people, but its Muslims mostly they are killing while also stealing their land so they don't give a fuck. You have talked in previous posts about not acknowledging the actual attacks against Jews enough unrelated to Israel specifically. I don't think anyone should be attacked or killed, but asking for stronger denouncements from people being slaughtered by the thousands weekly since Oct 7 (and before, that did not occur in a vacuum) and those wanting the killing to stop is a strange stand to take. "Biblical Israel" also drives the whole absurd "chosen people" bullshit. There is no such thing.
I wholly agree. All I'm saying is that I don't see why people who are justifiably outraged at the activities of Israeli ethno-religious fascists in Israel find it so difficult to support Jews in Britain and elsewhere who are being attacked and terrorised by people on the far left, the far right and by sympathisers with Islamo-fascist regimes like the current government of Iran.

Maybe it's different elsewhere but in the UK the pro-Palestine campaigners are simply shrugging their shoulders and saying "Nothing to do with us. We're anti-zionists, not antisemites, so it's not our problem," which I don't find very impressive. If members of any other vulnerable minority were being harassed and attacked, and having their places of worship, their community centres and their places of business firebombed, there'd be huge protests in solidarity with them. As it is, crickets, presumably because people are worried any gestures of support might be mistaken by others as support for what Netanyahu and his fascists are doing in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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I wholly agree. All I'm saying is that I don't see why people who are justifiably outraged at the activities of Israeli ethno-religious fascists in Israel find it so difficult to support Jews in Britain and elsewhere who are being attacked and terrorised by people on the far left, the far right and by sympathisers with Islamo-fascist regimes like the current government of Iran.
I agree with you. I think the trouble is that people have finite mental energy about what they can care about. I think the slaughter of Palestinians is the bigger horror right now, but do also really sympathize with regular Jewish citizens who have nothing to do with the government of Israel.

I can also understand why it comes off as whataboutism when we have to talk about other horrible things going on in a thread that is mostly about the Israeli government's crimes. A lot of terrible shit has happened recently in this world. We don't have to talk about all of it at once in the same thread.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I agree with you. I think the trouble is that people have finite mental energy about what they can care about. I think the slaughter of Palestinians is the bigger horror right now, but do also really sympathize with regular Jewish citizens who have nothing to do with the government of Israel.

I can also understand why it comes off as whataboutism when we have to talk about other horrible things going on in a thread that is mostly about the Israeli government's crimes. A lot of terrible shit has happened recently in this world. We don't have to talk about all of it at once in the same thread.
The problem is, there's little people can do to help the Palestinians, but quite a lot they can do to help support their Jewish fellow-citizens, who at least in the UK really are feeling under threat.

The journalist Jonathan Freedland makes a very good point here


and in his article here A British minority faces a murderous threat on our streets. Where are the so-called anti-racists?
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Jerusalem is the third holiest site for Islam on Earth. It houses the Al Aqsa mosque as well as the Dome of the Rock, from which Mohammed started his ascention to the heavens.

Jerusalem is divided into a part ruled by Israel and the east by the Palestines, which is occupied by Israel since 1967. Israel though has the control of the routes to Al Aqsa Mosque and others. And quite often harasses the Muslims by not allowing them access to Al Aqsa on Islamic festivities.

The jews do say it is their rightfully capital, the Palestines likewise. Functional Tel Aviv has most capital parts of Israel, but Jerusalem is the capital to be so to speak. Whatever.

For both sides giving up contral about all of Jerusalem is out of question due to a lot of reasons. This is a heavy red line for both of them.

Which is a big problem, because you cannot resolve the big conflict without resolving the status of Jerusalem in a way which is satisfying for both sides, which is nearly impossible.

Which is also why when Trump decided to move the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem this symbolic step enraged many Muslims all over the world. Because it told them: fuck you, I do support unashamedly whatever Bibi might come up with.
 
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Casey Pelous

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Regarding the entire Middle East, but especially Israeli/Palestinian troubles: Frankly, I think a whole lot of people long ago shrugged and decided, "These assholes will never sort this out." You wonder why there's no international outcry about the current round of awfulness? There's yer problem, right there. Nobody but the wildest optimist or extremist thinks there is any hope of a solution. Aside from the numbers being bigger, and, perhaps, the crimes being more horrific, how is anything substantially different today, in 2026, from how it was 50 years ago? Israel still seems to think that somehow they can win a big enough military action to solve everything. The Palestinians think there is some way that they end up with a peaceful homeland. I think if I could find the right face cream, I'd look 10 years younger. We're all insane. Is there some diplomatic or military or ??? solution that will sober us all up? I'm all for it if it can be created, but, damn, it has been a long time with absolutely zero progress. Meanwhile, my outrage supply is about tapped out and I'd rather spend the little I have left on some cause with some glimmer of hope.

As someone --- admittedly, someone very cynical -- once said about Yugoslavia, "The only time these people stopped killing each other was when they had Tito to do the killing for them."

At this point, my main concern is that my (rapidly declining) country insists on propping up one of the groups of assholes to the extreme detriment of innocent folks. The IDF would have a helluva lot tougher time inflicting their atrocities if they weren't positively swimming in US money, arms, and strategic support. Is the US's support going to change? Ha.

As to the attacks on Jewish people outside Israel, and not at all to defend those attacks, but the Israeli government has worked for decades to erase the distinction between "Jewish" and "Zionist." As has been pointed out rather often in this thread, if you dare question Israel's right to do whatever god-awful thing it damned well pleases, you're anti-semitic. By that logic, all Semites are Israeli-equivalents. Is it surprising that some of society's dimmer bulbs can't tweeze out the difference?

Finally, the "chosen people" thing. According to more moderate Jewish scholars, it's almost the precise opposite of "better than" or "more deserving than" everybody else. It's about being chosen to follow The Law, no matter what, and to serve as shining examples of Mosaic Law to the rest of the world. It's a responsibility: almost -- not quite -- a burden. It's a cause for humility. Certainly, not "We're the chosen people, so we get to do whatever we want, neener, neener, neener." I don't think I need to point out how Israel is doing in this regard.
 

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The British mentally ill and previously released from a secure hospital perp. has been charged with the attempted murder of three, not two persons: two Jews and one Muslim. Police already knew he was a dangerous person. Here's a video of officers kicking him in the head and the fallout.

The police just interfered in democracy

And a disgusting UK Times cartoon depicting Zack Polanski, who complained about police brutalitry, using obvious antisemitic tropes.

Greens take on antisemitic Times cartoon

The govt. and press have mostly made this horrific crime all about the Jews who were stabbed, while little has been heard about police and mental health services failings, and the Muslim victim, only that police have caught another Muslim terrorist.

This is not to deny British Jews are at risk, of course they are, and becoming increasing so, mostly due to greater public awareness of Israeli govt. atrocities, and the stupid and dangerous association of all Jews with those Israeli govt. policies.

Put the blame where it belongs.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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The British mentally ill and previously released from a secure hospital perp. has been charged with the attempted murder of three, not two persons: two Jews and one Muslim. Police already knew he was a dangerous person. Here's a video of officers kicking him in the head and the fallout.

The police just interfered in democracy

And a disgusting UK Times cartoon depicting Zack Polanski, who complained about police brutalitry, using obvious antisemitic tropes.

Greens take on antisemitic Times cartoon

The govt. and press have mostly made this horrific crime all about the Jews who were stabbed, while little has been heard about police and mental health services failings, and the Muslim victim, only that police have caught another Muslim terrorist.

This is not to deny British Jews are at risk, of course they are, and becoming increasing so, mostly due to greater public awareness of Israeli govt. atrocities, and the stupid and dangerous association of all Jews with those Israeli govt. policies.

Put the blame where it belongs.
It's two very different stories, though. First he attacked a man in Southwark whom he'd known for 20 years. He then travelled to Finchley, which is the other side of London, and an area where many Jewish people live, where he attacked two complete strangers who were complete strangers.

Whatever his reason may have been for attacking his friends, it's difficult to think what, other than antisemitism, was the reason for then travelling all the way to Finchley, which must have taken the best part of an hour no matter how he travelled, to attack two random people in the street.
 
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Beebo Brink

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That is always such a gotcha deflection they use to shut down criticism.
Not from me. It's an acknowledgment that debating the point about whether or not Israel should exist is a moot point. It exists; it's beyond debating. To argue over whether or not they should even be there is to distract from the more pressing issue of their current genocidal behavior. Would that behavior be any more acceptable if they'd been continuously living in that area for thousands of years? No, it would not.
 

Cristiano

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Does Israel "get a pass," though? More so than the KSA or some of the other Gulf states? There are plenty of other territories artificially created by the former colonial powers during the last century ithat have pretty appalling records but the western press hardly pays them any attention. Are you particularly well-up on what's happening in Sudan and Ethiopia, or the Central African Republic, or Myanmar? I'm not. (Before anyone objects, I'm not saying "What about..?" I'm simply contrasting the amount of media coverage and political attention that events in various countries receive -- simply by reading the mainstream British press I'm considerably better informed about politics in Israel than I am about politics in Belgium or Finland).
This level of whataboutism is absurd. Yes, they are literally slaughtering entire populations and stealing land, and continue to get away with it with the full support of the US. Claiming they are not getting a pass to continue to do endless atrocities is ridiculous.
 

Innula Zenovka

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This level of whataboutism is absurd. Yes, they are literally slaughtering entire populations and stealing land, and continue to get away with it with the full support of the US. Claiming they are not getting a pass to continue to do endless atrocities is ridiculous.
They "get a pass" from the US for the same reason as have any number of appalling right-wing and fascist regimes in different parts of the world over the years -- because, rightly or wrongly, the US has considered it in their strategic interests to have them as a solid ally and regional proxy. In the case of Israel, they were first a counterweight to Soviet influence in the Middle East and, more recently, against Shia militants backed by Iran (same as Saddam was, until he fell out of favour).

"Getting a pass" suggests the US's tolerance of appalling behaviour by one of its proxies is something unusual. What's unusual is the amount of media coverage it attracts and the amount of public concern this generates.
 

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America and Israel do have much in common:

1. both are secular settler projects with a strong "conquering the empty space" narrative
2. both are heavily militarised
3. both are democracies
4. both consider themselves to be chosen by god
5. both are heavily under the influence of religiots
6. criticising their way of doing things is blasphemy, it's either Anti American or Anti Semitic

So its no wonder America gets along with Israel pretty well.
 
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Mona Eberhardt

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Worse, it happened in Greece's SAR area of responsibility. With Greece's complicity. Which has crazy implications as to what arguments Turkey will have to dispute Greece's rights.
 

Mona Eberhardt

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Meanwhile, former Friends of the IDF director Robert Shillman publicly admits to funding the fascist Tommy Robinson. But Tommy is A-OK for Israel's shills, because he doesn't oppose genocide. All the deflections and whataboutism have one goal: to distract from the genocide, from the threat Israel poses to democracy, civil liberties, and global stability - and from its lobby's support for Nazis and fascists worldwide.
 

Mona Eberhardt

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America and Israel do have much in common:

1. both are secular settler projects with a strong "conquering the empty space" narrative
2. both are heavily militarised
3. both are democracies
4. both consider themselves to be chosen by god
5. both are heavily under the influence of religiots
6. criticising their way of doing things is blasphemy, it's either Anti American or Anti Semitic

So its no wonder America gets along with Israel pretty well.
And with Greece. No matter what crimes its government commits, it's anti-hellenic to criticise it. Although it's not a settler project, and doesn't pretend to be secular.
 

Mona Eberhardt

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