The Death of the Grand Old Party

[Aribeth Zelin]

Now its just a fascist slogan

 

[WolfEyes]

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Thank you.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

The term was actually goes back to Warren Harding and Woodrow WIlson, fired by fears that the US would be sucked into the latest European conflict (which became WW1). It related directly to protectionism and isolation more so than patriotism.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

The term was actually goes back to Warren Harding and Woodrow WIlson, fired by fears that the US would be sucked into the latest European conflict (which became WW1). It related directly to protectionism and isolation more so than patriotism.

Right. Its origins were always bad, but that doesn't mean we cannot steal that away from them to make it meaningful.

 

[Cindy Claveau]

Right. Its origins were always bad, but that doesn't mean we cannot steal that away from them to make it meaningful.

In my mind, the biggest stumbling block to ending xenophobia (a mini-version of which is at the root of most hate crimes) is that "nationalism" is based on a lie(s). America's great and all, but try telling most other Americans that we're not #1 in anything unless it's mass shootings. That goes over like the proverbial turd in a punch bowl.

(Obligatory Jeff Daniels monologue)

It's sickening to imagine how many right wingers don't know history, understand history or have even read a meaningful non-fiction book. Slogans are not history. "Protectionism" hurts your own workers. "America First" doesn't have to mean "nobody else counts". And last but not least, if Trump says something it's a lie.

(Sorry, ranting here. Not directed at you ).

 

[Jolene Benoir]

Oddly enough, I recently had a conversation regarding isolationism.

Imma just post what I did there. It was in regard to the isolationism leading up to WWII, why it took Pearl Harbor for us to get involved:

Me:

Yeah, isolationism was the thought of the day. WWI had left its impact upon the American psyche. We were still pretty rural then, and the idea of sending off their sons to yet another European war probably didn't appeal much to most people. We had a whole generation come back broken from that war, the lost generation, as usually happens when young men are sent off to brutal wars and come back home broken. People underestimate just how brutal WWI actually was, because it was supplanted by an even more brutal and horrible war. WWI may have been worse in some respects simply due to technology and medicine. Up close and personal trench warfare vs hell raining down from the sky. Neither are good, obviously, but one might leave more of an impact upon your psyche. At the time, they only knew of the horrors of the trench warfare.

They likely had no idea of the carnage that was happening in terms of genocide/holocaust. We know now, but how much did they know while it was actually happening? When I say "know" I'm not speaking of politicians or others high in rank, who likely had at least an idea of it. I'm speaking of your average farmer or man on the street.

Honestly though, going back to pre-WWI, I think it was well under way well before that, probably with no small hand in it of the Confederate Daughters of America and the like. Wilson, by now is known for what he was. He had the presidency and thus a blank sheet, much like Trump did.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

Oddly enough, I recently had a conversation regarding isolationism.

Imma just post what I did there. It was in regard to the isolationism leading up to WWII, why it took Pearl Harbor for us to get involved:

Me:


Honestly though, going back to pre-WWI, I think it was well under way well before that, probably with no small hand in it of the Confederate Daughters of America and the like. Wilson, by now is known for what he was. He had the presidency and thus a blank sheet, much like Trump did.

It of course gets better, because the German-Americans were probably not too happy that in WWI we took England's side, so when it came to WWII, they were slow to want to take that side again. And well, we did already have 'America First' as a fascist thing here, and no small number of people who didn't see a problem with genocide either.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Oddly enough, I recently had a conversation regarding isolationism.

Imma just post what I did there. It was in regard to the isolationism leading up to WWII, why it took Pearl Harbor for us to get involved:

Me:


Honestly though, going back to pre-WWI, I think it was well underway well before that, probably with no small hand in it of the Confederate Daughters of America and the like. Wilson, by now is known for what he was. He had the presidency and thus a blank sheet, much like Trump did.

My late father was born in 1909, and remembered his father coming home from leave in the trenches. He also remembered seeing windows with the curtains drawn during the daytime (signifying a recent death in the family) in every house in his small town on several occasions after the local regiment had "gone over the top" into pitched battle with the enemy, which is why he was a active pacifist campaigner during the 1920s.

However, he said that after Hitler annexed, first, Germany, and then Czechoslovakia, it was obvious that there was only one way to stop him. It was also quite obvious what the Nazis were about -- despite the British government's reluctance to admit Jewish refugees, enough people were able to make it over from Austria, at least, that my father struck up a long standing friendship with one of them whom he met on his daily bus to and from work (George Bunzl, if anyone's interested).

According to dad, in England at least, after 1938 everyone who wasn't deliberately closing their eyes knew what Hitler was about, and what was happening in Germany and elsewhere, and would continue to happen until everyone else put a stop to it.

 

[Beebo Brink]

My late father was born in 1909, and remembered his father coming home from leave in the trenches.

Wandering off topic, but this reminded me of a 1917 family portrait of my grandparents sitting outside their farmhouse in Texas, surrounded by their children. My father, born in 1905, is scowling at the camera, all of about 12 years old. My eldest uncle -- a dashing young man -- is dressed in his WWI uniform, holding the hand of his new bride.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

...everyone who wasn't deliberately closing their eyes knew what Hitler was about...

But I think a giant percentage of the world does close their eyes to a lot of major events. I can easily picture many of the same people who are anti-maskers and global warming deniers just hearing some of the rumors from Germany and thinking "that sounds like exaggerated bullshit." Big events are often written off as "exaggerated" by people who can't refute them but don't want their world view disrupted.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

But I think a giant percentage of the world does close their eyes to a lot of major events. I can easily picture many of the same people who are anti-maskers and global warming deniers just hearing some of the rumors from Germany and thinking "that sounds like exaggerated bullshit." Big events are often written off as "exaggerated" by people who can't refute them but don't want their world view disrupted.

The comparison that occurs to me would be something more like people outside India giving credence to Narendra Modi and the BJP when they suggest that they have COVID pretty much under control there, and always have done, and will lock up anyone who says otherwise.

People outside Germany knew what was going on -- not the whole of it, perhaps, and not the horrors that were to come, but they certainly knew enough.

 

[Free]

Didn't we cancel her and people like her well over 244 years ago?

 

[Jolene Benoir]

My late father was born in 1909, and remembered his father coming home from leave in the trenches. He also remembered seeing windows with the curtains drawn during the daytime (signifying a recent death in the family) in every house in his small town on several occasions after the local regiment had "gone over the top" into pitched battle with the enemy, which is why he was a active pacifist campaigner during the 1920s.

However, he said that after Hitler annexed, first, Germany, and then Czechoslovakia, it was obvious that there was only one way to stop him. It was also quite obvious what the Nazis were about -- despite the British government's reluctance to admit Jewish refugees, enough people were able to make it over from Austria, at least, that my father struck up a long standing friendship with one of them whom he met on his daily bus to and from work (George Bunzl, if anyone's interested).

According to dad, in England at least, after 1938 everyone who wasn't deliberately closing their eyes knew what Hitler was about, and what was happening in Germany and elsewhere, and would continue to happen until everyone else put a stop to it.

I understand. I still think that England, being closer to it had a much firmer grasp of the dangers of Hitler. Again, much of America was rural. Many maybe didn't even had radios at the time. Most did, but I bet a lot still did not. I'm not sure how well informed they were and whatever information they got only came from official channels.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Didn't we cancel her and people like her well over 244 years ago?

American Republicans seem to have recently forgotten that America doesn't have a royal family.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I understand. I still think that England, being closer to it had a much firmer grasp of the dangers of Hitler. Again, much of America was rural. Many maybe didn't even had radios at the time. Most did, but I bet a lot still did not. I'm not sure how well informed they were and whatever information they got only came from official channels.

You might be interested in this study

Beyond Belief: The American Press And The Coming Of The…

This most complete study to date of American press reac…

www.goodreads.com

It was certainly reported in the media, and people were aware of it, as we're aware of what's happening to the Uighurs today, and we consider both deplorable, but it wasn't a major issue for many people, it seems.

Great Britain and the other European powers and countries had particular and very immediate conflicts and congruences of interest with Nazi Germany which the US didn't have, but the fact of the Nazi persecution of Jews and other minorities in Germany and Austria before 1939, when Jews were desperate to leave the Reich, and the Germans wanted them to leave, so long as they left all their belongings, but nowhere wanted to accept many of them.

So too, obviously, were Hitler's territorial ambitions and his contempt for international treaties.

And after 1939, of course, it was all a bit obvious, and I think even the most rural US resident must have had a good idea what was happening on the other side of the Atlantic.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

You might be interested in this study

Beyond Belief: The American Press And The Coming Of The…

This most complete study to date of American press reac…

www.goodreads.com

It was certainly reported in the media, and people were aware of it, as we're aware of what's happening to the Uighurs today, and we consider both deplorable, but it wasn't a major issue for many people, it seems.

Great Britain and the other European powers and countries had particular and very immediate conflicts and congruences of interest with Nazi Germany which the US didn't have, but the fact of the Nazi persecution of Jews and other minorities in Germany and Austria before 1939, when Jews were desperate to leave the Reich, and the Germans wanted them to leave, so long as they left all their belongings, but nowhere wanted to accept many of them.

So too, obviously, were Hitler's territorial ambitions and his contempt for international treaties.

And after 1939, of course, it was all a bit obvious, and I think even the most rural US resident must have had a good idea what was happening on the other side of the Atlantic.

You're right.

Still, Beyond Belief supports my idea that the average man just wasn't informed in no large part due to what the press chose to cover.

I was giving the benefit of the doubt, but forced mass migration isn't something you can exactly ignore. I do know of just how many countries refused residence for folks of the Jewish faith. I didn't think the the average man on the street was aware of it, but I was wrong, much to our eternal shame.

Thank you.

 

[Fionalein]

American Republicans seem to have recently forgotten that America doesn't have a royal family.

or mandatory ID cards for everyone like the Brits 1st World nations,...

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

or mandatory ID cards for everyone like the Brits 1st World nations,...

and do poor people have to pay for their own ID cards in every country?

 

[Romana]

Didn't we cancel her and people like her well over 244 years ago?

Best response :

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

American Republicans seem to have recently forgotten that America doesn't have a royal family.

Pretty sad, since "republic" literally means "not having a royal family".