Sanders Warns That Israel Is Interfering In Michigan Senate Race

Myradyl Muse

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One of the big differences is also that the extreme far right and MAGA/Trump cult fanatics subsumed the entire 'normal' (used loosely) Republican party. They are now IMHO on their knees being dragged by a fascist leash, led by a psychopathic narcissistic megalomaniac.
 

Jopsy Pendragon

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I'm trying to imagine someone who would otherwise vote Democrat risk, because they disagreed with the Democratic candidate's view on this one issue, losing this senate seat to the Republicans.
I have one in my family. They protest, they volunteer, they research... very politically active. And they're absolutely freaking inflexible. They believe: "It's important to let the strategists know that they're leaving votes on the table, so that they'll take our issues more seriously in future elections!"

Sure. Great. Go do that in a state so overwhelmingly blue or red that your vote is utterly insignificant. Not in a swing state where elections continue to be won or lost by ridiculously thin margins.

Show some god damned solidarity when it counts. Dump your loser distraction candidate and get on board with supporting someone that CAN win instead of patting yourself on the back for helping split the vote so that the opposition could walk away with an easy victory.

We've gone round and round. Never makes a difference.
 

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It's a bit different in the UK, where everything is at the constituency level and, at least at the moment, we're in a multi-party system. Certainly Labour has lost both votes and seats because of its stance on Israel, Gaza and Palestine, but in general that's primarily an issue only when the main challenger to Labour is either a pro-Palestine independent or the Greens. When there's a risk of the Conservatives or (more likely) Reform getting in because of a split on the left, people have tended to vote tactically for whoever looks most likely to keep them out.
Does UK use Ranked choice or is it direct voting?
 

CronoCloud Creeggan

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I have one in my family. They protest, they volunteer, they research... very politically active. And they're absolutely freaking inflexible. They believe: "It's important to let the strategists know that they're leaving votes on the table, so that they'll take our issues more seriously in future elections!"

Sure. Great. Go do that in a state so overwhelmingly blue or red that your vote is utterly insignificant. Not in a swing state where elections continue to be won or lost by ridiculously thin margins.

Show some god damned solidarity when it counts. Dump your loser distraction candidate and get on board with supporting someone that CAN win instead of patting yourself on the back for helping split the vote so that the opposition could walk away with an easy victory.

We've gone round and round. Never makes a difference.
Splitters!
 
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Beebo Brink

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When there's a risk of the Conservatives or (more likely) Reform getting in because of a split on the left, people have tended to vote tactically for whoever looks most likely to keep them out.
The Israel/Gaza issue was double-jeopardy for Democrats in the 2024 election. They lost conservative Jewish voters who believed Trump was more pro-Israel than Harris, and on the other end they lost far-left voters who felt Harris was too pro-Israel. Whether those people voted for Trump or simply didn't vote at all (to "punish" Harris), the result was a win for Trump (and a loss for Gaza).

Talk of strategic voting really doesn't get much traction here (in the U.S.) at least in my experience. I think that people have become so disillusioned with what they perceive as a dysfunctional government, regardless of the party in charge, that they no longer have any patience for half-measures.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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I'm quite worried that a 2028 Democratic candidate will face a very similar catch-22. I'm not sure it's possible to rally progressive and moderate democrats in enough numbers. The left is extremely fractured right now.

I am actually starting to think that going all in for ending the genocide is not only the right thing to do, but MAYBE the best option politically. Biden and Harris both tried to grasp at a safe middle ground that just didn't exist. 75% of democrat voters now say they oppose more aid to Israel. Trying to recruit the other 25% might be the easier option at this point. ...but it is a quagmire.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Does UK use Ranked choice or is it direct voting?
It's direct voting, first past the post.

Our new PM, Andy Burnham, may change that, but I'll believe it when I see it.
 

Innula Zenovka

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The Israel/Gaza issue was double-jeopardy for Democrats in the 2024 election. They lost conservative Jewish voters who believed Trump was more pro-Israel than Harris, and on the other end they lost far-left voters who felt Harris was too pro-Israel. Whether those people voted for Trump or simply didn't vote at all (to "punish" Harris), the result was a win for Trump (and a loss for Gaza).
Since, though, the Jewish population of the US, around 60% of whom live in metropolitan areas of New York, California, Florida, and New Jersey, comprises about 2.4% of the total US population, I wonder to what extent that affected the outcome of the 2024 (or any other) election.
Talk of strategic voting really doesn't get much traction here (in the U.S.) at least in my experience. I think that people have become so disillusioned with what they perceive as a dysfunctional government, regardless of the party in charge, that they no longer have any patience for half-measures.
There's little opportunity for strategic voting in a two-party system, I think. It's only a live issue in the UK because support for what traditionally have been the two main parties, Labour and Conservative, has fallen so dramatically over the last 5 or so years. Labour's 2024 landslide victory was primarily a vote against the Conservatives, who were widely seen to have failed over the previous 10 years, just as the Conservative's 2019 landslide was primarily a vote against the idea of having Jeremy Corbyn as PM and in favour of ending the soul-destroying deadlock over Brexit. Similarly, I think, Labour's unexpectedly strong performance in 2017, when Theresa May called an unexpected and unnecessary general election, was primarily a vote against the Conservatives' catastrophically bungled campaign (they had to withdraw and rewrite a key section of their manifesto, on social care provision after it was dubbed "a dementia tax") rather than a vote for Corbyn.

Now people are pretty much disenchanted with both main parties, to the benefit of insurgent populists on the Right (Reform) and the Left (the Greens). It's noticeable, though, that both the Greens and independent pro-Gaza, socially conservative Muslim candidates do well only in areas where they are the only viable opposition to Labour, so disenchanted voters who would normally support Labour, no matter how reluctantly, can safely vote for an alternative without letting in someone they dislike even more than the Labour candidate.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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Since, though, the Jewish population of the US, around 60% of whom live in metropolitan areas of New York, California, Florida, and New Jersey, comprises about 2.4% of the total US population, I wonder to what extent that affected the outcome of the 2024 (or any other) election.
It's not JUST the voters who are actually Jewish. A lot of older and kind of conservative Americans haven't really deprogrammed from what they were told when younger that Israel is the only good thing in the Middle East and A LOT of Americans my age and older still carry A LOT of Islamophobia from 9/11. Obviously many of the people that I'm talking about already vote Republican but quite a few were just the right leaning democrats. Many were also BIG donors.

...and of course there are some very progressive Jewish people also want us to stop giving weapons to Israel.
 

Innula Zenovka

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This seems relevant:


Over the last couple decades, it has slowly dawned on Democratic party voters that Israel’s government and is very right wing. Netanyahu—a far right warmonger, ethnonationalist, and racist—has been the dominant force in Israeli politics for at least 15 years, and arguably for 30. During that same period, under Obama and Biden, Democrats have seen themselves more and more clearly as a party of multi-racial democracy defined by their opposition to an openly racist and fascist movement. You’d have to be pretty dense not to look at Netanyahu and say, “wait, why are we giving this guy guns?”
It’s not just that Israel and AIPAC are opposed to the values of Democratic voters. Netanyahu and those who support him have made it increasingly clear that they also flat out oppose Democrats, want the party to lose, and want the US turned over to the fascists.

There was a time when AIPAC and Israel were very careful to avoid partisanship precisely because they wanted both parties onside and did not want Israel policy to be at the whims of the US electorate. Bipartisan advocacy has become more difficult though as the two parties have become more polarized on basically everything. So Netanyahu just shrugged and embraced the GOP.
No Democrat would run in a Democratic primary touting support from the NRA and opposition to an assault weapon ban because that would be a way to lose. Similarly, support from AIPAC and for unrestricted military aid to Israel is now a serious problem for Democrats in primaries.
 

Sid

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I'm quite worried that a 2028 Democratic candidate will face a very similar catch-22.
Will there be a 2028 Democratic candidate possible if the midterms don't get a Dem majoritie in the houses?
How far will the USA (and maybe even the world) be wrecked economically and politically by then?
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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Will there be a 2028 Democratic candidate needed if the midterms don't get some majorities in the houses?
How far will the USA (and maybe even the world) be wrecked economically and politically by then?
Trump is trying really hard to sabotage our elections. We know.... we've talked about that ad nauseum. He's not done so YET, but he MIGHT. we don't yet know.

The answer to your second question is we're in deep shit. Most of the damage is already done. ....there could be even more damage of course.

I'm still very very certain there will be a 2028 Democratic candidate We of course do not know how fair that election will be. Once again, I think we talked about this ad nauseum and just have to wait to see how it actually progresses in reality.
 

Beebo Brink

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Trump is already laying the groundwork for declaring any Democratic wins to be the result of election fraud. The question is does he have enough control of the current government (and the military) to force his interpretation on the country.

Impossible to predict the outcome now. My country, in general, has continued to bitterly disappoint me since 2016, so I'm not sanguine about our prospects.
 

Noodles

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Democratic Candidate in 2028.



Pretend there is a speech bubble that says "I eat babies!"
 

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This is who they are so afraid of:

Was that before or after Jake Lang got arrested at the "Chud the Murderer" trial?


Also, is it just me or does he kinda look like he came out of a Stretch Armstrong mold?

 

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Trump is already laying the groundwork for declaring any Democratic wins to be the result of election fraud. The question is does he have enough control of the current government (and the military) to force his interpretation on the country.

Impossible to predict the outcome now. My country, in general, has continued to bitterly disappoint me since 2016, so I'm not sanguine about our prospects.
It is why there was absolutely nothing to celebrate for the 250th. It felt like a wake.