Rittenhouse Acquitted of all charges

Imnotgoing Sideways

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some unarmed pacifist weirdo
So, I'm assuming you open carry all day every day, no?

My problem with interpreting the 2nd amendment, or really by those who like to flaunt it, is that it is a single sentence delimited by commas. There is one single period at the end. Meaning, nothing in the entirety of the amendment is mutually exclusive. Further meaning, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, ..." can't be conveniently removed from context so that every drooling doof with 2 or more fingers can waddle around in civil population with a hand-cannon.

So... Are you a member of a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state? Or are you a self-centered nobody who wants to wield one-click death? And no, the NRA is not a regulated Militia, nor can they actually claim to be.

Honestly, the prosecutor threw the case. He was trying to lose.
 

Romana

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maybe not true:


I'm not sure I believe the bit about him not driving with the weapon... but am willing to believe he drove himself.
I wouldn't believe him if he said the sky was blue.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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I wouldn't believe him if he said the sky was blue.
Totally fair point, though I don't think there is any evidence that his mom drove him either. I'm especially suspicious of his claim the gun was waiting for him in WI. That was to avoid a charge of transporting a gun across state lines which arguably would have weakened his case in other areas.

...something else I have been thinking of is how maybe American self defense laws are too caught up in what happened in the heat of the moment, and willfully ignore the bigger situation that resulted in getting someone killed. So on one hand, you can have false claims of self defense in a fight the killer also kind of started. And on the other hand, it's very hard to claim self defense for killing a horrible abuser because they weren't beating their victim right in that moment...
 

GoblinCampFollower

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This does a great job of saying what I was trying to say. We need new laws to deter vigilante behavior... and there needs to be more lesser charges you can be convicted of for escalating a fight that results in people getting killed even if it meets the most generous definitions of self defense.
 

danielravennest

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So... Are you a member of a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state? Or are you a self-centered nobody who wants to wield one-click death? And no, the NRA is not a regulated Militia, nor can they actually claim to be.
The Militia is defined in US law. It consists of the National Guard plus men aged 18-45. So when a governor calls out the National Guard, it is in service of the 2nd Amendment. In theory, men in the general population can also be called up for service, but it has almost never been needed. The usual order of call-up is the National Guard, reserves, then active military if they have to.
 

bubblesort

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So, I'm assuming you open carry all day every day, no?
LOL, no.

My problem with interpreting the 2nd amendment, or really by those who like to flaunt it, is that it is a single sentence delimited by commas. There is one single period at the end. Meaning, nothing in the entirety of the amendment is mutually exclusive. Further meaning, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, ..." can't be conveniently removed from context so that every drooling doof with 2 or more fingers can waddle around in civil population with a hand-cannon.

So... Are you a member of a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state? Or are you a self-centered nobody who wants to wield one-click death? And no, the NRA is not a regulated Militia, nor can they actually claim to be.
I don't think you understand how militias worked. Neither does the NRA.

I actually think this clause could give us constitutional cover to dismantle the American standing military, which is something we should absolutely do. I'm sick of foregoing decent infrastructure, and simple public services, in order to give those disgraceful homicidal maniacs an unlimited budget to go commit suicide in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places. We give them too much money to let them lose to rice farmers and goat herders. We don't even have international support any more. Everybody knows if you fight alongside America, you're going to lose. It's time to shut them down.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, the police are now a standing army, and should be shut down with the rest of the military.

Honestly, the prosecutor threw the case. He was trying to lose.
I agree.
 
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Noodles

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This does a great job of saying what I was trying to say. We need new laws to deter vigilante behavior... and there needs to be more lesser charges you can be convicted of for escalating a fight that results in people getting killed even if it meets the most generous definitions of self defense.
At this point we have the precident that it would be totally cool to go hunting anyone on the pedophilia registry. Just go and harass them while carrying your gun then if they get confrontational you can just claim you fear for your life and kill them. Then everyone can just accuse you of defending a pedophile if you claim it wasn't self defense or the person put themselves in that situation.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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At this point we have the precident that it would be totally cool to go hunting anyone on the pedophilia registry. Just go and harass them while carrying your gun then if they get confrontational you can just claim you fear for your life and kill them. Then everyone can just accuse you of defending a pedophile if you claim it wasn't self defense or the person put themselves in that situation.
I mostly agree, except that it might be good enough just to claim they are a pedophile on no proof!
 

bubblesort

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Not to derail this thread or anything, but there are two similar, ongoing cases, that will have verdicts very soon.

Ahmaud Arbery, and the Charlotesville Unite the Right trial. Two rednecks rolled up in a pickup truck and shot Ahmaud Arbery dead with a shotgun, for jogging while black in their neighborhood. The rednecks were not arrested, or prosecuted, at first, because Georgia prosecutors are real dirt bags. Eventually, they found a prosecutor who would take the case. They had closing arguments today.

The Charlotesville case is against the Unite the Right organizers, for violating the Klu Klux Klan act, which outlaws conspiring to commit violence against minorities. They had closing arguments yesterday.

So the racists won the Rittenhouse case, but I'm hoping we have much more satisfying verdicts in these two under-reported cases. Even if we do get a good verdict, though, I doubt our media will notice it, at all. They will all be too busy talking about Thanksgiving and Black Friday revenue projections.
 

Imnotgoing Sideways

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The Militia is defined in US law.
I'll half agree. "The Militia" implies a federal/state governed entity. "A well regulated Militia" is ambiguous enough to permit operations independent of current government control. Frankly, a terrorist organization can fit into raw definition of Militia. But, history is written by the winners. Last year's "domestic terrorists" could become next year's civil war heroes.

That's exactly what an unarmed pacifist weirdo would say.

I don't think you understand how militias worked. Neither does the NRA.
A militia, per definition, can be:
A military force raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency. (National Guard)
A military force which engages in rebel or terrorist activities in opposition to a regular army. (uMkhonto we Sizwe)
All able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service. (The Draft)

The second amendment is purposely ambiguous for reasons stated above. I'll use a statement I posted to Twitter earlier today:
Me on Twitter said:
A regulating body only implies an order of roles and rank. Much of the intent in the Constitution is to protect the population from a totalitarian regime. Defaulting to federal/state breaks that protective barrier.
In the end, the individual is given no singular independent right to own or bear a firearm. The wording is just not there when taken in full context.
 

Rose Karuna

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This seems like a good thread to add this: There's nothing more frightening in America today than an angry White man

We have enough problems with White male violence as it is. Mass shootings in the US are committed more often by White men than by any other group. Top law enforcement officials now say the nation's biggest domestic terror threat comes from White supremacists. And many of the most indelible news images of recent years include angry, red-faced White men, often armed with guns.

Consider scenes from the US Capitol riot, which were filled with angry White men wielding crude weapons and pummeling police. Or the snarling faces of young White men holding tiki torches during the 2017 rally in Charlottesville. Or the angry White men who clashed with anti-racist protesters across the US last year.

White male anger has become one of the most potent political forces in contemporary America. That anger helped a White man win the White House. Trump's rise to power is inconceivable without his ability to tap into White male anger and embody it.
Has there ever been an angrier modern president? He is the White male id unleashed.
 

Innula Zenovka

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The problem with making Self Defense a straight easy out is you can just claim anything is self defense. I have not watched in in ages but I think it was a South Park episode where they outlawed hunting or something except in defense. So the hunter guys would go out and Hollar, "It's coming right for us!" Before shooting the animals.
In England the common law on self-defence is well-summarized here:


It works, by and large, because we don't allow civilians to travel 20 miles to parade around in trouble spots, taking with them firearms in case they need to defend themselves. As the Governor of Illinois puts it


There's also the unpleasant fact that a great deal of the history of the Second Amendment was to ensure that local white militias were able to put down rebellions and revolts by the enslaved, and to make sure the enslaved had no access to firearms (to the extent that South Carolina, during the American War of Independence, threatened to surrender to the British rather than accept any Black volunteers, enslaved or free, to fight the British.

Similarly, post-Emancipation, it's been used to ensure that White militias are able to protect other White citizens from what they perceived as lawless mobs of darker-skinned peope, just as Mr Rittenhouse doubtless thought he was doing.

While, in this as in so many other ways, a document drawn up during the C18th to accommodate the concerns of a landowning aristocracy based on racialised kidnapping and forced labour doesn't really work too well for contemporary conditions, maybe one way forward, without tinkering with the Second Amendment, might be to introduce a distinction similar to the one we have in the UK between Grievous (i.e. "really serious") Bodily Harm, contrary to either Section 18 or Section 20 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, with Section 20 covering Grievous Bodily Harm With Intent, which is a considerably more serious offence than Section 18, simple GBH.

If there's a fight and I strike out at my assailant, either with a hammer I happen to be holding at the time or have instinctively grabbed to defend myself, then if I cause sufficiently grave injuries, that's GBH. If I take a hammer with me, though, because I think I may need to use it to defend myself, then that's GBH with Intent, and I'm looking at a much longer sentence. If I pick something up in the heat of the moment, it's a jury question, but if I took it with me without a very good excuse (I'm a carpenter on my home from work, for example) then it's almost certainly Section 20.

I wonder if something similar could not be used to distinguish between lawful and unlawful self-defence. Presumably the only reason Mr Rittenhouse armed himself before travelling to Kenosha is that he thought he might need to use a firearm for self-protection, which makes me want to ask him why he didn't simply protect himself by staying at home that night, since he wasn't acting as a sworn member of law enforcement, national guard, sherrif's posse or anything similar.

While I'm not sure I'd want to remove the right to self-defence completely, I do think that in cases where the defendant's only reason for carrying the weapon which he killed the victim was to protect himself, and it's not something he would nomally have about him, then it should be sufficient to mitigate the charge to manslaughter.
 
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danielravennest

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I'll half agree. "The Militia" implies a federal/state governed entity. "A well regulated Militia" is ambiguous enough to permit operations independent of current government control. Frankly, a terrorist organization can fit into raw definition of Militia. But, history is written by the winners. Last year's "domestic terrorists" could become next year's civil war heroes. ...

The second amendment is purposely ambiguous for reasons stated above.
Not at all. Alexander Hamilton was quite clear what they meant by a militia in the Federalist Papers #29. If you are not familiar with them, they were a series of pamphlets written to persuade people of the time to support the new Constitution. They were intended to be a relatively small body of trained soldiers controlled by the states, who could be called out when needed. That's essentially what our National Guard is. Since the Militia is living their lives when not called out, and they had personal weapons that they were familiar with and maintained, hence the "keep and bear arms" passage.

They were concerned about a tyrannical central government, which they had just fought a war to get rid of a few years previous. So they didn't want the new federal government being created by the Constitution to ever take away the local militia's and citizen's guns. Hence the larger phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Plenty of people besides the Militia had guns for various reasons - hunting, defending against native attacks, the possibility of the British returning (which in fact they did 24 years later). The Militia were the first line of defense, but the general body of able-bodied men with weapons could back them up if necessary.

(This of course was long before women's rights and modern weapons that no ordinary individual can afford)
 

GoblinCampFollower

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I wonder if something similar could not be used to distinguish between lawful and unlawful self-defence. Presumably the only reason Mr Rittenhouse armed himself before travelling to Kenosha is that he thought he might need to use a firearm for self-protection, which makes me want to ask him why he didn't simply protect himself by staying at home that night, since he wasn't acting as a sworn member of law enforcement, national guard, sherrif's posse or anything similar.

While I'm not sure I'd want to remove the right to self-defence completely, I do think that in cases where the defendant's only reason for carrying the weapon which he killed the victim was to protect himself, and it's not something he would nomally have about him, then it should be sufficient to mitigate the charge to manslaughter.
VERY nicely put and I highlighted the part that I see as especially key. I'll probably come close to quoting you at thanksgiving with conservative relatives if this comes up (I won't bring it up). Another thing I might ask my parents if this comes up is "Would you have let any of your kids drive to a possible riot with a gun when they were 17?! I don't think he is likely guilty of full murder, but there are a number of lesser charges he is begging for. He was looking for trouble in a way no decent, rational person would do when he had to "defend" himself.
 

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Wow - Bring your own AK-47 to the party and kill two men and wound a third and get off with no charges what-so-ever. :shakefist:

Between the prosecution essentially botching the trial, and Judge Shroeder's barely-veiled bias toward the defense, the outcome really didn't surprise me in the least. Even so, I am still horrified and disgusted.