Recent Windows 10 Patches Causing Problems

Kara Spengler

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Actually nowadays Windows Defender is amongst the best anti virus products around; the first thing I always do on computers I should lean up/declutter/stabilize is to delete third party anti virus software, and let Defender do its job. So if the updates need improvement, so be it, it is still better than running third party AV!

Third party anti virus products tend to interfere in the inner workings of Windows in unthought/undocumented ways, which might break important programs. And most of them are noawadays convoluted messes of bloatware, where most of the functionality people simply don't need at all nor do understand. Being bloatware also makes them an attack vector for malware due to tons of security flaws.

But you don't have to take my word for this; ex Mozilla developer Robert O'Callahan wrote a well received and wide spread blog post in 2017 about it, being called "Disable Your Antivirus Software (Except Microsoft's)":

"I was just reading some Tweets and an associated Hackernews thread and it reminded me that, now that I've left Mozilla for a while, it's safe for me to say: antivirus software vendors are terrible; don't buy antivirus software, and uininstall it if you already have it (except, on Windows, for Microsoft's).

At best, there is negligible evidence that major non-MS AV products give a net improvement in security. More likely, they hurt security significantly; for example, see bugs in AV products listed in Google's Project Zero. These bugs indicate that not only do these products open many attack vectors, but in general their developers do not follow standard security practices. (Microsoft, on the other hand, is generally competent.)

Furthermore, as Justin Schuh pointed out in that Twitter thread, AV products poison the software ecosystem because their invasive and poorly-implemented code makes it difficult for browser vendors and other developers to improve their own security. For example, back when we first made sure ASLR was working for Firefox on Windows, many AV vendors broke it by injecting their own ASLR-disabled DLLs into our processes. Several times AV software blocked Firefox updates, making it impossible for users to receive important security fixes. Major amounts of developer time are soaked up dealing with AV-induced breakage, time that could be spent making actual improvements in security (recent-ish example).

What's really insidious is that it's hard for software vendors to speak out about these problems because they need cooperation from the AV vendors (except for Google, lately, maybe). Users have been fooled into associating AV vendors with security and you don't want AV vendors bad-mouthing your product. AV software is broadly installed and when it breaks your product, you need the cooperation of AV vendors to fix it. (You can't tell users to turn off AV software because if anything bad were to happen that the AV software mighthave prevented, you'll catch the blame.) When your product crashes on startup due to AV interference, users blame your product, not AV. Worse still, if they make your product incredibly slow and bloated, users just think that's how your product is."

Google lead security engineer on Chrome Justin Schuh also has enough evidence on his own:

I git my teeth when people insist I run some AV, especially when their software checks for it (think corporate VPNs). I am not a "mac viruses do not exist" person but know a bit more infosec than the average user. For example, right now I am hardening my macbook pro even more before taking it into an environment where I KNOW that I will be waving a "please attack me" flag among people who can do so easily. In other words a brightly coloured volunteer t-shirt at a conference I have been warned about by infosec peeps.

Anyway, back to the topic. If you have the right attitude, information, and tools AV software just takes up disk space and slows things down.
 

Clara D.

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Anyway, back to the topic. If you have the right attitude, information, and tools AV software just takes up disk space and slows things down.
Rather telling that M$ feels compelled to make it part of their OS. I never had to run Linux as an "administrator" (aka root) to keep it from irritating the piss out of me with incessant "THIS SOFTWARE IS DOING A THING" warnings. It's either the horrible practice of running with admin priveledges or wanting to gnaw my arm off because of UAC...

TBH, my questionable behaviour that isn't "Do What An End User Might Do" would be covered by just an on-demand scanner.

A lot of AV's even if they aren't of dubious quality to begin with are typically outdone by people never updating and/or just excluding everything that pops up. Quote: "Dis yellow box keeps popping up inna corner of my screen and I has ta click on iah make it go away, can ya make it stop?" And I hate PUPs with a white hot passion -- with the big borky names both doing it, chances that a blind-click-installing person will manage to have BOTH McAfee AND Norton on a system at the same time.

And yes, I'm just sort of randomly babbling. Insomnia does that to me.
 
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Kara Spengler

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Rather telling that M$ feels compelled to make it part of their OS. I never had to run Linux as an "administrator" (aka root) to keep it from irritating the piss out of me with incessant "THIS SOFTWARE IS DOING A THING" warnings. It's either the horrible practice of running with admin priveledges or wanting to gnaw my arm off because of UAC...

TBH, my questionable behaviour that isn't "Do What An End User Might Do" would be covered by just an on-demand scanner.

A lot of AV's even if they aren't of dubious quality to begin with are typically outdone by people never updating and/or just excluding everything that pops up. Quote: "Dis yellow box keeps popping up inna corner of my screen and I has ta click on iah make it go away, can ya make it stop?" And I hate PUPs with a white hot passion -- with the big borky names both doing it, chances that a blind-click-installing person will manage to have BOTH McAfee AND Norton on a system at the same time.

And yes, I'm just sort of randomly babbling. Insomnia does that to me.
There is a key reason why MS would do that: users. Techies are usually trustworthy not to do something bad (well, usually, not always) but most users are in another field and just want office and email to work.

My machine is pretty good about popups. The only time I get driven batty is when I am too cautious for my own good (never have your machine tell you about EVERY connection EVERY program is making).

I typically run with my admin account on macs but it is more like I am in the sudoers file. Which would make sense seeing as it is based on linux. I get prompted for my password to do things it should ask about and do not have access to to other user's files.
 

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They pulled the "optional" September update that pooched Windows Search if you had the audacity to remove Bing from it.

(I got bit by this, and rather than troubleshoot, I got peeved and reinstalled Windows and skipped the patch. This is why I still have Windows on it's own partition -- if it pisses me off, I just wipe that partition.)

Good luck to those of you with a printer o_O
Is that the one that added the stupid web search?

I have gotten into the habit of "Windows Key+Type" to run programs, and I hate hate hate the new Start menu search.

There doesn't seem to be a way to have it just search programs. I don't want local file search, and definitely don't want web search. I just want an installed program or nothing.
 

Clara D.

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Is that the one that added the stupid web search?

I have gotten into the habit of "Windows Key+Type" to run programs, and I hate hate hate the new Start menu search.

There doesn't seem to be a way to have it just search programs. I don't want local file search, and definitely don't want web search. I just want an installed program or nothing.
Well.... it's the one that broke search if you disabled Bing from the start menu, so sort of.

I'm currently using O&O Shutup10 to make windows behave, it's one of the options ;)
(O&O allows settings backup and doesn't try to install PUPs like DoNotSpy and is a stand-alone executable)

O&O also has a nifty little "unwanted crAPP" removal tool -- and instead of removing per-user, there's options to remove it entirely.

Windows was driving me mad befofe I found this, any time I added a user the unwanted crapware would come back >_<
 
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Clara D.

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There is a key reason why MS would do that: users. Techies are usually trustworthy not to do something bad (well, usually, not always) but most users are in another field and just want office and email to work.
Some of us are just "very naughty" for economic reasons and want the AV as a mitigating factor :p My laptop is also a field-test-unit -- I have a IDE/SATA-to-USB adapter thingy so if someone's computer is really far gone I can pull the drive and hook it up to mine for scanning and file-recovery, so I want the AV for that as well.

The other reason M$ includes one is their OS is swiss-cheese by comparison.

My machine is pretty good about popups. The only time I get driven batty is when I am too cautious for my own good (never have your machine tell you about EVERY connection EVERY program is making).
I tried Comodo briefly . . . it did it's protection by having to individually white-list literally *everything* but key OS files o_O

Reminds me of when I derped up a firewall setup and got a couple of G log file because of ports 137, 138, 139 which apparently winderps machines are EXTREMELY chatty on.

I typically run with my admin account on macs but it is more like I am in the sudoers file. Which would make sense seeing as it is based on linux. I get prompted for my password to do things it should ask about and do not have access to to other user's files.
Well, I never ran as root (unless it was a quick temporary thing), but if I needed to I added myself to groups.

Someday I'll have to familiarize myself with Mac, but unless someone gives me one, I'm sort of SoL in that department. I'm one of those people that learn-by-doing --- I can remember stuff long enough to pass a test, but if I don't do anything with the info it tends to just go poof.
 

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Actually nowadays Windows Defender is amongst the best anti virus products around; the first thing I always do on computers I should lean up/declutter/stabilize is to delete third party anti virus software, and let Defender do its job. So if the updates need improvement, so be it, it is still better than running third party AV!
Respect.

I was doing that even before Windows Defender. The antivirus industry is basically corrupt. Not just terrible, corrupt. They create "demonstration" viruses for platforms that don't have a virus problem, and do nothing to keep them from escaping into the wild.

A few jobs back I was the lead tech for our developer group, and we were having horrible problems with antivirus blocking our developers from doing stuff they needed to. I talked the VPIT into banning Outlook and Internet Explorer, and making that our primary antivirus strategy. For the rest of the '90s and into the 2000s we were the only division of the company not to have a virus scare.

So, yeh, this isn't a recent problem.

I use Windows Defender because it aleast it's not going to be bypassing parts of Windows to insert its hooks. I don't use antivirus on anything but Windows.


Is that the one that added the stupid web search?

I have gotten into the habit of "Windows Key+Type" to run programs, and I hate hate hate the new Start menu search.

There doesn't seem to be a way to have it just search programs. I don't want local file search, and definitely don't want web search. I just want an installed program or nothing.
Oh duck I thought I was doing something wrong. I find that if I close it and try again it seems to DTRT mostly. God, please let there be a way to turn that off.
 

Kara Spengler

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This is cybersecurity month. We just had to do the yearly security training. Which is all about various social engineering tactics.

Ah, AV .... you will not be missed.
 

Kara Spengler

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I actually haven't. I'll have to look into that later.
It is still in beta right now but given how few resources they have and that Be did not give them the source it is pretty respectable what has been done. Their plan is to reach parity with the last release of BeOS and then keep going.
 

Clara D.

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Oh duck I thought I was doing something wrong. I find that if I close it and try again it seems to DTRT mostly. God, please let there be a way to turn that off.
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Search
New > DWORD (32-bit) BingSearchEnabled (set to 0)
Set CortanaConsent to 0

Disclaimer: Some recent updates break search completely if you disable Bing.

And some recent updates break search completely regardless o_O
 
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Clara D.

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Respect.

I was doing that even before Windows Defender. The antivirus industry is basically corrupt. Not just terrible, corrupt. They create "demonstration" viruses for platforms that don't have a virus problem, and do nothing to keep them from escaping into the wild.
Adware that installs itself as a PuP with other software isn't something I consider "security" software. Which is most of the "big names" now.

I occasionally rant about it. It's very easy for a click-all-the-things-to-install end user will end up with multiple brands of the crap all running at the same time. Just one is bad enough o_O
 
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Sid

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My first PC was a 386 with Windows 3.x on it. And now light years further I still run my machine with Windows as OS.
Same goes with McAfee. Always kept me out of trouble from day one. They really have excellent customer service. I needed them once and that guy was spot on, had the virus under control in minutes and my pc cleaned soon after that. No charges.

No reason what so ever to do some Windows bashing or McAfee whining.
If there only weren't those phone calls from India several times a year calling from the Windows..... :D
 

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PalmOS is not a thing. WebOS has no relationship to PalmOS.
In the meantime, Palm’s David Nagel (the person who leads the subsidiary that Be engineers are working under, and he also has control over Be’s IP) has said that parts of the Be technology will be used in a new, 32-bit, PalmOS, but sources say that he has firmly declined any further desktop versions of BeOS, as the desktop is not Palm’s focus.
From The End of a Chapter for Be & BeOS – OSnews
 

Kara Spengler

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My first PC was a 386 with Windows 3.x on it. And now light years further I still run my machine with Windows as OS.
Same goes with McAfee. Always kept me out of trouble from day one. They really have excellent customer service. I needed them once and that guy was spot on, had the virus under control in minutes and my pc cleaned soon after that. No charges.

No reason what so ever to do some Windows bashing or McAfee whining.
If there only weren't those phone calls from India several times a year calling from the Windows..... :D
If you want to amuse yourself some hackers set themselves up for those scams and when they get called youtube the results. :)
 
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If you want to amuse yourself some hackers set themselves up for those scams and when they get called youtube the results. :)
I have been tempted to turn the tables on those callers but usually settled for wasting their time. Eventually they figured I wasn't using Windows.