Nobody Cares: the Non-Fungible Thread

Noodles

The sequel will probably be better.
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
6,020
Location
Illinois
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
04-28-2010
SLU Posts
6947
Stupid monkeys.

Also, that last one has an eye floating off his face. Whomever put these things together, can they draw?
No.

99% of these are genwrated by algorthms. Its not even aupporting some artist. Its a computer doing paint by numbers with props on a randomized, generic pallet.
 

Free

*censored*
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 22, 2018
Messages
42,365
Location
Moonbase Caligula
SL Rez
2008
Joined SLU
2009
SLU Posts
55565
Its not even aupporting some artist. Its a computer doing paint by numbers with props on a randomized, generic pallet.
At least normal paint by number kits try to keep the body parts together.
 

Aribeth Zelin

Faeryfox
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
4,140
SL Rez
2004
Joined SLU
03-11-2011
SLU Posts
9410
Basically, someone didn't trash the weird one; you train a computer AI to work in a 'style' and sometimes, the results are good, but every once in a while, it forgets what its supposed to be doing, or else is showing its own creativity and being experimental.
 

Free

*censored*
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 22, 2018
Messages
42,365
Location
Moonbase Caligula
SL Rez
2008
Joined SLU
2009
SLU Posts
55565
Basically, someone didn't trash the weird one; you train a computer AI to work in a 'style' and sometimes, the results are good, but every once in a while, it forgets what its supposed to be doing, or else is showing its own creativity and being experimental.
Let's not get lazy and start calling whatever code they're using to generate their NFT trash images a computer AI. The term gets misused constantly as it is.
 

Aribeth Zelin

Faeryfox
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
4,140
SL Rez
2004
Joined SLU
03-11-2011
SLU Posts
9410
Let's not get lazy and start calling whatever code they're using to generate their NFT trash images a computer AI. The term gets misused constantly as it is.
Except, that's how its done. Its not doing good art, but gigo and all that. See, I was working on learning Python for just this [ai art, not nfts] and once I have a quiet space to get back to it.... [I mostly know C#, and python isn't much like it in syntax so its learning from the ground up]
 

Argent Stonecutter

Emergency Mustelid Hologram
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
7,477
Location
Coonspiracy Central, Noonkkot
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sep 2009
SLU Posts
20780
We haven't developed AI yet. Calling spinoffs of AI research AI is like calling a Fisher space pen a spaceship.
 
  • 2Agree
Reactions: Beebo Brink and Free

Dakota Tebaldi

Well-known member
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
9,812
Location
Ohio
Joined SLU
02-22-2008
SLU Posts
16791


Hey, if it keeps working there's no reason to stop doing it
 

Free

*censored*
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 22, 2018
Messages
42,365
Location
Moonbase Caligula
SL Rez
2008
Joined SLU
2009
SLU Posts
55565
Except, that's how its done.
That's how what they are doing may be done, whether or not it's garbage, but it's not Artificial Intelligence, not for real. As Argent notes above, we haven't developed anything one can legitimately label AI.
 
  • 1Agree
Reactions: Beebo Brink

Dakota Tebaldi

Well-known member
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
9,812
Location
Ohio
Joined SLU
02-22-2008
SLU Posts
16791
This one is kind of NFT adjacent more than directly NFT related, but anyways.

Humonals is an NFT project created by former philanthropist now-"life coach" and cryptovangelist Phoenix Marcon, built on the Etherium-based Polygon cryptocurrency. According to the description on Humonals' Facebook page which I'll quote here without commentary,

This book-to-life series pits human-like animals against each other in the struggle for dominance and territory through the ownership of NFT's.
Humonals launched in April with the stated vision of eventually creating an animated show called "Humanimals", and is raising money allegedly toward that goal by selling procedurally-generated NFTs of panther-based character pfps, which because UTILITY will also supposedly function as characters in a card-combat-type video game that will also be developed at some future point.

Pretty much indistinguishable from dozens upon dozens of other similar NFT projects of course. However, it's unclear how the project is going to proceed at this point because its creator has just been arrested by the feds - although NOT for any crypto/NFT-related business.

According to the DoJ press release, Phoenix Marcon, along with eighteen other co-conspirators, allegedly perpetrated a fraud by working together to either create fake businesses or forge documents misrepresenting existing businesses, in order to apply for COVID relief loans via the SBA's Paycheck Protection Program. These are the kinds of loans that were authorized by the CARES act, intended to help small businesses retain employees and stay solvent in the face of lockdowns and employee quarantines during the pandemic. These guys basically pretended to be several impacted small businesses in need of help, applied for and were awarded a number of loans totaling up to $3.5 million which they just spent on themselves. ALLEGEDLY.

Also according to the press release, one of the other co-conspirators is listed as

Jason Lawrence Geiger, a/k/a Austin St. John a/k/a the Red Power Ranger, 47, of McKinney;
...and yeah, it really is that actual guy, lol.
 
  • 1Interesting
Reactions: Kamilah Hauptmann

Khamon

Folk Harpist
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
3,097
Location
Alabama
SL Rez
2003
Joined SLU
2007
Why would I pay five-thousand guilders for bulbs, that have to be planted, tended, and divided for profit, when I can buy guaranteed ownership of a picture of the bulbs for fifty-thousand guilders, do nothing, and sell it for many profits next year?
 

Free

*censored*
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 22, 2018
Messages
42,365
Location
Moonbase Caligula
SL Rez
2008
Joined SLU
2009
SLU Posts
55565
I love it when families - or their lawyers - carve up the body of a famous dead relative to squeeze every last penny out of them.

The Notorious B.I.G.'s digital ghost is here to sell you NFTs
The estate of The Notorious B.I.G. is gearing up to deal in the infamous NFTs, as reported by THR, OMG. But rest assured, reader, that “The Brook,” the new activation that will allow fans of Biggie Smalls’ music to “own” their own non-existent piece of memoribilia related to him, is not just your average NFT drop that’s going forward for some reason even though we’re pretty sure crypto done crashed: It’s also a weird game thing where you can hang out with a bizarre digital copy of Christopher George Latore Wallace himself.
 
  • 1Thanks
Reactions: Dakota Tebaldi

Dakota Tebaldi

Well-known member
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
9,812
Location
Ohio
Joined SLU
02-22-2008
SLU Posts
16791
In previous posts I've explained a few times the biggest problem with building programs on blockchains - the tokens have a size limit, which means you have to break the program into little chunks; and the tokens that make up those chunks are indelible, meaning programs can't be patched easily or at all. There have been a few tries anyway at making large blockchain-based programs as a gimmick or proof-of-concept but for the most part even NFT bros have realized that it's far, far easier to use the blockchain only to hold and trade tokens, and maybe a couple of very small programs, like a DAO's voting tabulator; and any other important software - like websites or games or whatnot - will just be normal software, existing on computers normally, and just given the ability to access the blockchain or individual wallets to look for certain tokens.

That idea is the basis for "Web 3.0" - websites, programs, and games that can look into your crypto wallet and do things based on what they find there. Rather than signing into the members-only web forum of your NFT club with a username and password, you sign in with your wallet, and when the forum software scans it and sees that you have an appropriate club NFT in there, you're let in. Simple, right? Or one of the most common examples used to describe how this would work in practice is the idea of game assets - like if there's an online game and you've bought a special character skin for it as an NFT, the game checks your wallet, sees the NFT, and applies the associated skin to your character automatically (or lets you choose if you have several, or whatever). Since the tokens you buy, like game skins in this case, exist in your crypto wallet rather than on a game server locked to a specific "user account", other Web 3.0 things besides just that one game can also see the token and act on it. Like...other, completely different games might see that skin in your wallet and apply it to your character in THAT game too! You can be the same character or wear the same armor or whatnot in several different games. And also, the tokens again being in your wallet you more meaningfully "own" those things - the company you bought them from can't take the token away from you. I mean like, even if you were a complete douche and got yourself banned from the game you originally bought the token from, the token itself stays in your wallet so you still get to use your badass armor in other games that haven't banned you.

That's the pitch, and you've prolly already, very quickly thought up some serious problems with the whole idea. Just as an appetizer, let's consider that it's hard to express just how much easier the whole idea of shared game assets is said than done. If you do any kind of game modding you already know that assets - like, let's say, clothing or armor as an example - can't just be drag-and-dropped from the program folder of one game into the program folder of another game and "just work". If the characters in Game A and Game B use different skeletons or are different sizes, like at the very least the armor has to be re-rigged or converted in some other way; more realistically, a new asset has to be built from scratch for Game B that just looks like the armor from Game A. Scale that up to the whole "Metaverse" and we're talking a game developer that wants to create a fully-compatible "Web 3.0" game is going to have to create a working version, for its specific game, of every single tokenized asset that exists across every other Web 3.0/Metaverse game and will have to continually update this asset library as new games are released by other people and more new and unique tokens are created and sold. And that's just like the most immediate ecosystem problem.

There's another really big problem with the whole Web 3.0 idea, but I'll get back to it. Let's set this whole thing aside for a bit and shift gears.

Remember how in another post I mentioned that Etherium has no inbound gate for wallets - if I know your crypto wallet address, I can drop literally anything into your wallet that I want at any time and there's nothing you can do to stop me? I think the example I used was a malicious smart contract that looks like some ape NFT but whose code is designed to immediately transfer any coins or NFTs in your wallet to me if you ever interact with it? That was and is 100% true. And you can't just like, delete stuff from your wallet, you have to actually send it to another wallet to get rid of it (which will cost a transaction fee). But even if you open your wallet and notice the little smart contract I sent you and you recognize it for the evil trap that it is, or are at least smart enough to not touch it because you don't know where it came from, well....sucks to be you, because like, you can't EVEN transfer this deadly radioactive token to someone else because the moment you try, that's still an interaction with the token, meaning the code inside it executes, and sends me all your stuff anyway even on its way out. So this thing that you know you can't touch, has to sit right there in your wallet, forever, just waiting for your hand to slip one day and accidentally click on it. Faaaantastic.

But a virus that robs you is just one thing. Imagine all of the other things I can send you without your permission. Dan Olsen in his super-long video about NFTs mentions the easy and obvious one - dick pics. But that's just for starters. How about if I somehow find out you're a specific person - like someone who's tweeted some progressive stuff on Twitter, like maybe a Pride flag or something, and that really pissed me off because I'm a MAGA chud, and I'm the real dangerous kind who isn't afraid to find out where you live, and one day my random burner-wallet droppy-drops a little NFT into your wallet that's a photo of you dropping your kid off at school this morning, with some tasteful gun-crosshairs drawn over it. Well, I guess at least you're lucky that it's not a virus, and in theory you can pay to send the picture to someone else to get it out of your wallet, if you want to do that. Kinda scary though maybe?
 

Dakota Tebaldi

Well-known member
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
9,812
Location
Ohio
Joined SLU
02-22-2008
SLU Posts
16791
But wait a second. Crypto wallet addresses are just indecipherable hash - that's what makes crypto pseudonoymous, you don't need to give anyone your ID to create one. If I'm careful enough not to do anything that would tie my wallet to my identity, how can anyone find out this wallet with its gibberish address belongs to a specific real-life person which is me?

You'll be relieved to know the creators of The Future have some thoughts on that!


Vitalik Buterin is one of the original creators of Etherium. He proposes a "soulbound token", a special kind of token which isn't just non-fungible, but non-transferable too. Once it's in your wallet, it's there forever, by design.

The name "soulbound" is a reference specifically to World of Warcraft, although other MMOs have the same kinds of things under different names. In WoW, a soulbound item, once you receive it in-game, is locked to your account - you can't sell it or give it away to another player via the in-game marketplace.

It's kind of a strange choice to make something that's theoretically going to be used for many applications worldwide and give it an official, technical name that's only going to make sense to fans of a specific online game and would just look like some weird and potentially uncomfortable religious reference to anyone else that's unfamiliar with that game, but anyways. Main idea: an SBT is, hypothetically, a token that is locked to the first wallet it's dropped in and can never be moved out of that wallet. Why might we want something like this? Let's see:



So that's the basic idea. If an institution, company, organization, whatever wants to give you a token that is not meant to be sold or traded but is meant to be owned only by one, specific individual person, they can mint it as an SBT and put it in your wallet and there it stays for ever. You can't sell it or give it away, and on the plus side no malicious actor can ever steal it either, whether with a malicious smart contract or by somehow getting your private wallet key. They can steal your other stuff, but your university diploma will always be safe and sound.

And, well, there's one way to tie your identity to your wallet. If I see a personalized SBT with your name on it, like a college degree - or a birth cert, or a state driver license, or whatever else that cryptobros have mentioned they envision being tokenized - in a wallet, I know that wallet is yours.

But that's just where the problems start. Look how one-sided the examples in those tweets are. Notice how they all have the same flow?

1. You get an SBT from X (a school, a conference committee, a certification board)

2. Y (someone - another school, a potential employer, a project manager) looks in your wallet and sees the SBT from X

3. You win (you get accepted, you get the job, some other positive thing happens)

But that's an incredibly optimistic way of looking at how these things will work. It's treated like an unspoken axiom that only positive decisions will be made by people based on seeing what SBTs are in your wallet.

But let's say I'm a hiring manager for that corporation you're applying to and you give me your public wallet key so that I can look into your wallet and see your SBT bachelor of science in widgeteering from the University of Woolloomooloo or wherever and that's great - but remember I'm a MAGA chud, so I happen to see while I'm looking that you also have that SBT attendance badge that the environmental conference helpfully dropped into your wallet that you can't get rid of, and now I know that you're a whiny treehugging liberal cuck and I'm especially mad today because a climate change protest slowed my commute this morning so I toss your job application because it makes me feel better. Oopsie, that didn't go so well after all.

Or what if instead of an untransferrable, undeletable conference attendance badge, it's an untransferrable, undeletable note added to your wallet by your local police department because you were arrested for - whatever, something - and even though you were ultimately cleared and never even charged, anyone who looks in your wallet gets to see that.

Or an SBT from a bank or utility company because you had a rough month and made a late payment.

You see where I'm going with this.

And those are just assuming that only institutions and government agencies and legitimate corporations will have the power to mint SBTs - but, who knows if that would even be the case? What if anyone can make them? Like, right now you CAN get that unsolicited dick pic out of your wallet by sending it somewhere else, like a garbage wallet. It'll cost you a transfer fee, but you CAN do it. But what if the dick pic is an SBT? Well then you're just out of luck.

And let's go back to that little fact about how someone who compromises your wallet couldn't steal an SBT from it. That's true, but...once someone manages to get your private key, your wallet is compromised forever, because private keys are made when the wallet is created and can't be changed. If you want a new private key, you need to make a new wallet. And right now, that's the way you deal with a wallet that is known to be or potentially compromised because it's all you CAN do - you make a new wallet, and transfer everything you have (left) out of the old wallet into the new one, and then just stop using the old wallet. Well, if SBT's are a thing, you'll never be able to transfer them to your new wallet, they're permanently stuck in the old compromised wallet; and if some of those SBT's are like, vital personal records as these guys say they want to be the case, then your identity is now permanently available for use by the malicious actors who stole the key. Marvelous.

And these problems are so incredibly obvious. It takes a kind of culty willful blindness to just assume that only good things will happen, the system will always only work as intended, and just ignore all the potentially bad things that can and are just as likely to happen.

And this is where we pick the whole "Web 3.0/Metaverse" thing back up, and the argument that because that game character armor is "a token in your wallet" that you more meaningfully "own it" and the game company you bought it from "can't take it away from you". The unspoken assertion is that people somehow have no choice but to care about your token, but the elephant in the room is that you can keep the token in your wallet all you want but that doesn't mean the game company has to honor it forever. Because the game itself isn't on the chain. It CAN be changed, it CAN be patched. If they want to punish you by taking your armor away, or simply no longer want to support whatever expansion pack your armor was a part of, they can blacklist your token, and just like that your token simply doesn't do anything anymore. Think being banned from one game doesn't affect your access to other games? What's to stop game companies from sharing blacklists? Some games do this already - why would your game subscription being tokenized stop them? Heck, if SBT's become a thing, they can just drop a scarlet letter token right into your wallet and you can't ever get rid of it, lol. Or what about things besides games - what about those NFT-project member-only forums? What if I'm the project creator and I have a deep irrational hate-rivalry with some other NFT project, and set up my forum so that if it detects any NFT's from that other project in your wallet, you don't get into the forum even if you have one of my NFTs, because you're just a double-timing traitor?