Democratic Party Presidential Candidates for 2020

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Brenda Archer

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Yeah, most nontechnical people set up a mail server in their bathroom. Who hasn't made that mistake? :D
I saw nontechnical older managers with staff make stupid mistakes all the time when I was working. Unless we know of intent, it’s fair to say this was more of the same. Actual government employees should be monitored by other actual government employees.

By now, “but her emails” is nothing but a bullshit bad faith argument.

And it’s so old.
 

Brenda Archer

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I appreciate and respect your frankness. I'm going to try to consider your viewpoint in interacting with you in the future. I think you have more at stake in all of this than I do.

I recently met and spent about an hour with a gentleman from Ethiopia who was brought to the US in 1993 to be part of Hillary Clinton's Task Force on National Health Care Reform. It sounded like they put together a pretty enlightened plan for Universal Health Care. It's a little ironic that she was shot down for being unqualified when it was probably the most qualified solution the country had seen to it's health care problem. Hillary picked this doctor. He was brilliant and had a compassionate charisma that's hard to describe. I wish we could extinguish whatever forces that are at work in our system that can start with a woman with a brilliant vision. like Hillary Clinton, and turn her into someone that says "It's never going to happen". It's so unfair.

I don't blame you one bit for not liking people, like me, who seem to be advocating for political roulette. If Hillary Clinton would have won in 1993, both of us would probably have different perspectives. We probably wouldn't be as desperate in such different ways.
I’m definitely a healthcare voter, but I’m not a single issue voter. But if you want to convince me you care about all these Lefty causes, you must *build a political machine* devoted to deliverables.

I find your story about Clinton and healthcare very interesting. The thing is, the opponents to UHC are embedded in every part of the system, the insurance companies, the managed care companies, the for-profit large medical chains, pharma, and more.

The public is much better informed now, and the problems with a system based on insurance as a perk of employment (for only a privileged portion of workers) are much more obvious as the public ages.

What the difference was between what Clinton knew then and now, I cannot say.

My own experience of the for-profit healthcare system is that it is ableist, predatory, and negligent, but asking sick people to give up their healthcare is still not the way forward. Disability is a minority anyone can enter at any time.

Healthcare is just an example of our corporate, neofeudal reality. If the system is so broken the democratic process cannot do more than tinker around the edges, that leaves us with:

1) building community solutions that increase individuals’ power to survive and thrive. In my own small way, I’ve done some work on that.

2) work on increasing the power and legitimacy of the democratic republic. This sounds impossible to get right, to libertarians who keep insisting the state is the problem, instead of capture of the state by oligarchy.

It is quite clear that the only forces that can push back at large entities like multinationals are other large entities. A legitimate state, based on the rule of law, can do more to push back at the oligarchs than anything else we have.

These choices are not either/or.

If you have an idea for the U.S. and similar countries that is not social democracy, what is it? I’m not asking for a list of what’s going wrong. What else is concretely possible that isn’t already in one of the two buckets I’ve listed?
 

Jolene Benoir

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Irony shot dead by tone police.
Just as an aside, I do not regret my "mean" post in the slightest bit. I'm angry as hell and I'm tired of watching fools argue about how they were right to throw this country into the chaos and evil we currently exist in because they didn't like HRC. It's just more whistling past the graveyard AND it's heartless toward those who are currently being targeted.
 

Spirits Rising

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Honestly, same here Jolene ... it's part of why I've not bothered commenting all too much here ....

The little I have posted has been very tame when compared to the thoughts that run through my head - I have little use for or patience with idealists who are too blinded to keep their eyes forward. I'm disabled and will admit that I have been very lucky thus far but that luck cannot last forever.

Making matters worse, two of the three others I live with have some form of disability - be they diagnosed or not - as does my SO and the third .... he has his issues and can work (local range truck driver) but honestly many of his views and his overall attitude are taxing enough without the added worry of all of this shit.
 

Brenda Archer

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Just as an aside, I do not regret my "mean" post in the slightest bit. I'm angry as hell and I'm tired of watching fools argue about how they were right to throw this country into the chaos and evil we currently exist in because they didn't like HRC. It's just more whistling past the graveyard AND it's heartless toward those who are currently being targeted.
Thank you.

It seems to me the divide in the Dems is between the targeted and the privileged. They keep succumbing to the temptation to defect to the Right and their privilege lets them think they should be centered in every conversation, even though the people who are being targeted are shouting that they want to get out of the crosshairs.

The privileged in the Dem party include plenty of economic conservatives who must surely be tempted to form their own party and in so doing, become spoilers for the Republicans, which is a win win since some of the economic conservatives are just plain old conservatives who can’t quite do the Evangelical Morals Party.

They pretend to be Left. If they not listening to the targeted people in the crosshairs, I don’t buy it. All of the components of oligarchical fascism are one system.

Hiding behind idealistic Leftism while ignoring the actual targets of fascism is just disguised fascism at its core. Either that, or it’s ignorant. This is as generous as I’m willing to get.

You don’t get to hide behind expertise, privilege or anything else while tolerating the spread of fascism. It’s either good for you (because you’re in the favored groups) or it’s not, you realize it and so you oppose it.

Plenty of people historically have opposed fascism when they realized it was also bad for them, even if they were just able to see the targeted people and draw the inevitable conclusions.

I can’t with equivocation.
 

Eunoli

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Are there any Dems running that any significant number of Dems will refuse to vote for? Are there any Dems running that Aeon will refuse to vote for?
No. Because like or hate them, not a single one of them is going to put babies in cages. Not a single one of them is going to strip health care from millions of Americans. Not a single one of them is going to play footsies with Putin and other dictators.

So no.
 

Eunoli

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Thank you.

It seems to me the divide in the Dems is between the targeted and the privileged. They keep succumbing to the temptation to defect to the Right and their privilege lets them think they should be centered in every conversation, even though the people who are being targeted are shouting that they want to get out of the crosshairs.

The privileged in the Dem party include plenty of economic conservatives who must surely be tempted to form their own party and in so doing, become spoilers for the Republicans, which is a win win since some of the economic conservatives are just plain old conservatives who can’t quite do the Evangelical Morals Party.

They pretend to be Left. If they not listening to the targeted people in the crosshairs, I don’t buy it. All of the components of oligarchical fascism are one system.
I'm more centrist than left and I think you guys aren't that far from my views on many things. We might quibble about Medicare for All vs. Medicare for Anyone who wants it, but on most of the other big stuff we are agreeing. With the right putting our future not just as a democracy but as a viable planet in danger, how can we not agree?
 

Brenda Archer

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I'm more centrist than left and I think you guys aren't that far from my views on many things. We might quibble about Medicare for All vs. Medicare for Anyone who wants it, but on most of the other big stuff we are agreeing. With the right putting our future not just as a democracy but as a viable planet in danger, how can we not agree?
Word. Everything is at stake.

Everything.
 

Kara Spengler

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Reminder these guys still exist: Indivisible Lots of signposts to point you to places to act locally from there.
The big thing they did is get people involved, which is great. Practically everything in their guide is absorbed in "citizen lobbying 101" the first few times you are heading off to run a few laps around congressional offices but nobody else found that stuff interesting before.
 
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Kara Spengler

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LOL. Just for the record, Hillary Clinton got 61% of the popular vote in my state and all of the electoral votes. Gary Johnson earned over twice as many votes as Putin Puppet Jill Stein who earned 1.2%.
So basically it was a toss-up there, right?

Look up the election results for DC. Now extend that back to EVERY election since we got the presidential vote (in the mid 20th century, and that adds to our bitterness over political pressure from ppl in the 50 states).
 

Aeon Jiminy

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If you have an idea for the U.S. and similar countries that is not social democracy, what is it? I’m not asking for a list of what’s going wrong. What else is concretely possible that isn’t already in one of the two buckets I’ve listed?
My ideal is like the most radical Scandinavian countries. I think you should have the healthcare that you need. I think you should be provided with the income that you need. There are countries that would also provide you with some holistic therapies like massage if appropriate. I'm all for that. There are countries that would buy you a car to drive where you need to go. I'm for that. I think that we, as a society, should act like a good neighbor or family. You're human. We're human. There is nothing that has happened to you that can't happen to us. We have the resources to help your health, save you stress, and it's not a crime to give you something else just to make you happy to be alive. If we could put a man on the moon, surely we could beat some tiny countries in Europe.
 
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Eunoli

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My ideal is like the most radical Scandinavian countries. I think you should have the healthcare that you need. I think you should be provided with the income that you need. There are countries that would also provide you with some holistic therapies like massage if appropriate. I'm all for that. There are countries that would buy you a car to drive where you need to go. I'm for that. I think that we, as a society, should act like a good neighbor or family. You're human. We're human. There is nothing that has happened to you that can't happen to us. We have the resources to help your health, save you stress, and it's not a crime to give you something else just to make you happy to be alive. If we could put a man on the moon, surely we could beat some tiny countries in Europe.
Healthcare-wise, what's a great ideal. I have no issues with it. Its my personal eventual goal. I think the issue people are having is that you're saying if you can't get this all at once, you certainly don't want what parts we can get and will instead take your ball and go home, leaving the country to those who will make sure we /never/ get that ideal.
 

Cristalle

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I don't think anybody here is calling Clinton a "saint" and she's way to the right of many of us.

But it was clear to me that Trump was mobbed up and the mob in question is Russian, New Yorkers had been saying this for a long time. And the Manafort problem was being reported on in the mainstream press long before the election.

If the Republicans had chosen their own standard corporate candidate like Romney I'd be all "vote your conscience," but to me there's still a difference between the usual obnoxious corporate corruption and the actual damn Russian mob.

I voted against the Russian mob.
I just found the demand for Aeon's "valid reasons" offensive. I mean, really? There are so many of them, and it came across like there weren't any reasons to vote third party if you were in a state/jurisdiction that afforded you the opportunity to do so, as Aeon and Kara are. I can understand academically why some people might throw a middle finger to the system, but it feels like bullying. No, Aeon didn't help Trump win. States elect the president, not individuals, and Aeon's state went for Hillary by a wide margin. Aeon had the luxury of throwing up a middle finger. I didn't, and I acted accordingly.

Yes, I think it's very clear that Trump is mobbed up and loaded with dirty money that he's been laundering through his businesses. He's a liar, and a repugnant excuse for a human being. It was clear from go that he was unfit for the office. My lesser evil calculation was correct in that regard, but it's actually wrong as pertains to Syria since Trump hasn't gone whole hog there, and potentially right as it pertains to Iran. Mixed bag, obviously. We all have to choose our evils when it comes to this system, and until we have a viable third party that overtakes one of the others, we will have to keep making this calculation again and again.
 

Cristalle

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Healthcare-wise, what's a great ideal. I have no issues with it. Its my personal eventual goal. I think the issue people are having is that you're saying if you can't get this all at once, you certainly don't want what parts we can get and will instead take your ball and go home, leaving the country to those who will make sure we /never/ get that ideal.
"Goals" are a great way to keep doing nothing. We need to elect people who will actually move the needle toward the goal, and wishywashy people who negotiate against themselves or who will capitulate to corporate interests are not who we need in the office. I'm tired of these tropes of "all at once." You know, when they transitioned people onto Medicare in the 60s, they did it in only one year. With our technology today, there is no reason why we can't do it in four, as has been proposed.
 

Aeon Jiminy

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Healthcare-wise, what's a great ideal. I have no issues with it. Its my personal eventual goal. I think the issue people are having is that you're saying if you can't get this all at once, you certainly don't want what parts we can get and will instead take your ball and go home, leaving the country to those who will make sure we /never/ get that ideal.
You're in the majority in your willingness to negotiate for crumbs. If crumbs is all there truly is to give, then I hope you get them. I mean that kindly. But a little bit of anything, just ends up being a little bit that is easy to take away. They will end up needing your crumbs as dessert topping.
 

Brenda Archer

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My ideal is like the most radical Scandinavian countries. I think you should have the healthcare that you need. I think you should be provided with the income that you need. There are countries that would also provide you with some holistic therapies like massage if appropriate. I'm all for that. There are countries that would buy you a car to drive where you need to go. I'm for that. I think that we, as a society, should act like a good neighbor or family. You're human. We're human. There is nothing that has happened to you that can't happen to us. We have the resources to help your health, save you stress, and it's not a crime to give you something else just to make you happy to be alive. If we could put a man on the moon, surely we could beat some tiny countries in Europe.
This is all great, but the only way we’re going to get it is a viable party, or a machine in a viable party, that is running candidates at the local and state levels and not just taking moon shots at the Presidency.

The actual implementation of many things on your list is in state legislatures. Do I see these parties running candidates in my state? No.

What I see are Left to Center Democrats, if I want anything done in real life, I’m voting for them. All the way up and down the ticket.

If you want people to support your third party candidate and they don’t even bother to come to my district, what are they doing for me? Nothing.

I don’t care if someone in a place like DC votes for whoever. But a lot of states are in play that haven’t been before. This is new.

What I’m really hearing from you is that you say you want this laundry list of happy things, but you’re safe enough under the present system that you don’t need concrete deliverables and people like me should “just wait” until the important people get their needs met first.
 

Beebo Brink

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There are many valid reasons to not vote for Hillary Clinton if she was running against Mitch Romney or even Ted Cruz. But none when she was running against Trump.

Trump is a con artist, crook, incompetent businessman, racist, womanizer/rapist, holding no discernible morals or principles, of low intelligence, and so insanely narcissistic that he is outright delusional. All of this was well known before the election.
 
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