Democratic Party Presidential Candidates for 2020

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Aeon Jiminy

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The revolution did not have a system in washington to work within. The relevant system was in London which, given the technology at the time, was pretty much irrelevant, so it did not really get going until it seceded.

If you think the rest did not have a political component I feel sorry for how you are fooling yourself. Control before, oh, Reagan may have been laxer but what did things like Occupy do?
I think you are exactly right. I think all of these movements had important mechanics working the system. except The American Revolution. I would also say that in movements with financial components like Medicare4All, Education, Anti-War, Climate Change, we're back to The Revolutionary War. The system mechanics can only work on "how are you gonna pay for that?" hamster wheels. The system may as well be someplace else, because we will never have enough money to afford Washington's vending machines for things like that. That is only for the realm of our new corporate monarchs. They also own the mechanisms of our electronic vote. They own the polls. They own the media. We either have faith in their integrity or not. I don't. Why should I have to? So for me, I'm left with a movement.
 

Jolene Benoir

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I would answer you by saying that the person who was touted as "the most qualified candidate ever" delivered this country to the feet of Donald Trump.
Bullshit. The people who voted for him, the people who voted for Stein (like yourself), Russia (both with propaganda and hacking), Wikileaks in conjunction with Russia, Cambridge Analytica also in confunction with Russia, Fox News, and James Comey one week prior to the election all worked toward the election of Donald J. Trump.

Of all of those, I would assign those who directly voted for him as well as those who were feeble-minded enough to believe the propaganda the most blame. Have a look in the mirror, why don't you.
 
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Brenda Archer

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I think you are exactly right. I think all of these movements had important mechanics working the system. except The American Revolution. I would also say that in movements with financial components like Medicare4All, Education, Anti-War, Climate Change, we're back to The Revolutionary War. The system mechanics can only work on "how are you gonna pay for that?" hamster wheels. The system may as well be someplace else, because we will never have enough money to afford Washington's vending machines for things like that. That is only for the realm of our new corporate monarchs. They also own the mechanisms of our electronic vote. They own the polls. They own the media. We either have faith in their integrity or not. I don't. Why should I have to? So for me, I'm left with a movement.
Franklin’s diplomacy was very important to the early American cause.

You’re deep in the counsels of despair. I refuse to cede ownership of society to the corporations. Too many people seem to think they deserve it. They’re actually the beneficiaries of late stage colonialism - warlords.

But people who have never governed themselves are always looking for a rescuer, so the corporations will do, and they uphold the cause of the people who rob them.

All our wealth has blood on it.

All our land is a commons that was stolen.

But if we remember back a little way, some of us can remember oldsters telling us how their towns were set up to be self-governing. Self-government is *work*. Consumers cannot do it. Merely having a rebellion cannot do it.

So I would say, and I don’t care if this sounds old-fashioned, that the people who are willing to self-govern have two enemies. On the one hand, the corporations and the rentier class, who are used to perverting the law to suit themselves, and on the other hand the irresponsible rabble, who sometimes imagine themselves to be a rebellion, but who always wind up obeying the warlords in the end for security: because rebellion without understanding is nothing but the search for the strong father.

Self-government, on the other hand, retains all its thoughtful power for itself. So if you have self-control, weak people will say you’re arrogant, uppity, rebellious like they are, and so on.

The suffragettes were constantly told they were bad, but they had confidence in their own ability for self-government. They were conscious of their abilities but also of the work that would be involved.

Rebellion isn’t enough, you have to build something. For the internet rebellious on the right, it just winds up as capitulation to the latest popular strongman. They just want a Daddy rescuer and they haven’t been particular about who. The rest of their crap is projection. They can’t stay Left for any length of time because they never were to begin with.
 
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Aeon Jiminy

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Bullshit. The people who voted for him, the people who voted for Stein (like yourself), Russia (both with propaganda and hacking), Wikileaks in conjunction with Russia, Cambridge Analytica also in confunction with Russia, Fox News, and James Comey one week prior to the election all worked toward the election of Donald J. Trump.

Of all of those, I would assign those who directly voted for him as well as those who were feeble-minded enough to believe the propaganda the most blame. Have a look in the mirror, why don't you.
Wow! You pretty much laid it out... the mother of all conspiracy theories. It was everybody and every thing other than Hillary Clinton, herself. I'm the one that needs to look in the mirror? Seriously?
 
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Brenda Archer

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Wow! You pretty much laid it out... the mother of all conspiracy theories. It was everybody and every thing other than Hillary Clinton, herself. I'm the one that needs to look in the mirror? Seriously?
Can you tell me what exactly Clinton is guilty of, besides bad email security (which most nontechnical people do all the time). That’s just not enough by itself. Telling me a centrist candidate is bad because she gave a speech at some investment firm is definitely not enough.

Do you have anything substantial?
 

Jolene Benoir

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Wow! You pretty much laid it out... the mother of all conspiracy theories. It was everybody and every thing other than Hillary Clinton, herself. I'm the one that needs to look in the mirror? Seriously?
The very fact that you call Russian interference in our election a conspiracy theory while quite easily having fallen for conspiracy theories about Clinton says it ALL about YOU. You are a fucking moron. There. How's that for laying it out?

Our top CIA and FBI officials, you know, those paid to know about such things agree on past interference and what's more it's continuing. Here, in today's news: FBI director says Russia is intent on interfering in U.S. elections. Let me guess: You don't consider them a valid source?

FBI Director Wray: Russia intent on interfering with U.S. elections
 

Anya Ristow

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Bullshit. The people who voted for him, the people who voted for Stein (like yourself), Russia (both with propaganda and hacking), Wikileaks in conjunction with Russia, Cambridge Analytica also in confunction with Russia, Fox News, and James Comey one week prior to the election all worked toward the election of Donald J. Trump.

Of all of those, I would assign those who directly voted for him as well as those who were feeble-minded enough to believe the propaganda the most blame. Have a look in the mirror, why don't you.
The deep denial in this post tells me that the propaganda is still working. Not that I had any doubt. My facebook feed is still dutifully shoveling the shit they are told to shovel.

Even the math on the Russia thing convinces nobody. The CEO of google can say with a straight face, before congress, that the Russians spent forty seven hundred dollars across all google properties, and nobody's brain engages. That doesn't seem like enough money to throw an election, does it? The Thirteen Indictments contains the actual reason the Russians created ridiculous, barely culturally aware memes, $46,000 worth of them before the election, but that part doesn't get reported, and the obedient tools think the Russians rigged the election. The firm that prepared the report to congress on this shit is caught doing the same thing the Russians did, with the same budget as the Russians, in a much smaller Georgia election, and it's called a test and not a scandal, because it would be inconvenient if people actually learned of it.

Six corporations own all the media, and people obediently accept what the charismatic millionaires tell them, and nobody's brain engages.

Yep, the propaganda is still working.
 

Jolene Benoir

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The deep denial in this post tells me that the propaganda is still working. Not that I had any doubt. My facebook feed is still dutifully shoveling the shit they are told to shovel.

Even the math on the Russia thing convinces nobody. The CEO of google can say with a straight face, before congress, that the Russians spent forty seven hundred dollars across all google properties, and nobody's brain engages. That doesn't seem like enough money to throw an election, does it? The Thirteen Indictments contains the actual reason the Russians created ridiculous, barely culturally aware memes, $46,000 worth of them before the election, but that part doesn't get reported, and the obedient tools think the Russians rigged the election. The firm that prepared the report to congress on this shit is caught doing the same thing the Russians did, with the same budget as the Russians, in a much smaller Georgia election, and it's called a test and not a scandal, because it would be inconvenient if people actually learned of it.

Six corporations own all the media, and people obediently accept what the charismatic millionaires tell them, and nobody's brain engages.

Yep, the propaganda is still working.
Are you SERIOUSLY, coming in here with a straight face and attempting to state that the extent of Russian interference was $4700 spent across Google on a few memes? At best you are being disingenuous, at worst you are, with deliberation, completely ignoring every single bit of evidence that has been presented both before the election and in the last two years, give or take.

You're going to have to shovel that shit to someone else, not me. I don't have large enough waders.
 

Kamilah Hauptmann

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Ah yah, eyes fixated on the numerals.
 

Cristalle

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Are you SERIOUSLY, coming in here with a straight face and attempting to state that the extent of Russian interference was $4700 spent across Google on a few memes? At best you are being disingenuous, at worst you are, with deliberation, completely ignoring every single bit of evidence that has been presented both before the election and in the last two years, give or take.

You're going to have to shovel that shit to someone else, not me. I don't have large enough waders.
You were just uninformed but that number is correct. The short of it is, the Russian interference machine in 2016 was not as big a bogeyman as pertains to the Internet and social media as certain outlets like to make us think. Much of it was done *after* the election, andthe damage done by them is probably marginal at best. More damage was done through home grown voter suppression like in Wisconsin and Georgia and tampering in places like Florida than any other excuse people are looking for to explain Hillary's loss.
 

Brenda Archer

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The deep denial in this post tells me that the propaganda is still working. Not that I had any doubt. My facebook feed is still dutifully shoveling the shit they are told to shovel.

Even the math on the Russia thing convinces nobody. The CEO of google can say with a straight face, before congress, that the Russians spent forty seven hundred dollars across all google properties, and nobody's brain engages. That doesn't seem like enough money to throw an election, does it? The Thirteen Indictments contains the actual reason the Russians created ridiculous, barely culturally aware memes, $46,000 worth of them before the election, but that part doesn't get reported, and the obedient tools think the Russians rigged the election. The firm that prepared the report to congress on this shit is caught doing the same thing the Russians did, with the same budget as the Russians, in a much smaller Georgia election, and it's called a test and not a scandal, because it would be inconvenient if people actually learned of it.

Six corporations own all the media, and people obediently accept what the charismatic millionaires tell them, and nobody's brain engages.

Yep, the propaganda is still working.
What? The FBI director was telling us *today* that the Russians are going to try to rig the Presidential election AGAIN and you’re trying to blow it off as a nothing?
 

Jolene Benoir

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You were just uninformed but that number is correct. The short of it is, the Russian interference machine in 2016 was not as big a bogeyman as pertains to the Internet and social media as certain outlets like to make us think. Much of it was done *after* the election, andthe damage done by them is probably marginal at best. More damage was done through home grown voter suppression like in Wisconsin and Georgia and tampering in places like Florida than any other excuse people are looking for to explain Hillary's loss.
I was not just *uninformed*. I took the number straight from her post.

It's late and I am tired and more than a bit irritated, so I am going to give a wiki link rather than pour through years worth of data that has been repeatedly published regarding Russia's interference and has been widely available to the public for people who choose to be blind.

Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections - Wikipedia
 

Aeon Jiminy

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Can you tell me what exactly Clinton is guilty of, besides bad email security (which most nontechnical people do all the time). That’s just not enough by itself. Telling me a centrist candidate is bad because she gave a speech at some investment firm is definitely not enough.

Do you have anything substantial?
I have valid reasons for not voting for Hillary Clinton, all of us know that you and "the forum mob" don't want to hear them or try to understand them, so let's not go there this time. My vote was not part of a conspiracy, I wasn't a victim of mind control, and I did pay close attention to what was happening to me and my right to have a voice of consent and dissent. There's one thing that we can work together on next time to beat Trump. "Blue No Matter Who" and "Stronger Together" is a two-way street. It's not an order to fall in line with those who carry the biggest sticks or wag their fingers the most. Be willing to make the hard sacrifices before you demand others to do the same. That's how you beat Trump.
 
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