Brexit.

[Innula Zenovka]

 

[Luisa Land]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode/times/prod/web/bin/ad7d3f16-1cdc-11e9-bcfa-eb6ef536f22f.jpg?crop=2582,1721,632,207&resize=758

The Times & The Sunday Times

 

[Innula Zenovka]

@Innula: They do everything to ease their ways. If there are advantages for us "normal" people, then that's just collateral.

Could you please, then, identify which of the 72 laws you think was in any way disadvantageous for "us 'normal' people"?

I have to say, I am not wholly sure that people like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and William Rees-Mogg are particularly likely champions of 'us "normal" people' either. What do you think?

 

[Tigger]

@Innula: They do everything to ease their ways. If there are advantages for us "normal" people, then that's just collateral.

Tigger: Indeed it's your business and your business alone. Okay, that of your country.
However, I think there shouldn't be posted workers from foreign countries AT ALL. In any country. And I do consider all other countries except for the country I live in FOREIGN countries. Anyways: If you want to work anywhere else than your own country, apply for a visa and working permit like all immigrants. You want to study in another country? Apply for a student's visa there. Nobody in any other country (especially not this wannabe "parliament" in Brussels) should have a say in that.

Same here with Germany: If I had a say here, there would be closed borders again, the D-Mark would be back instead of the Euro, and there would be both: hefty tariffs on all imported goods that can just as well be produced nationally (eg. most fruit and vegetables, honey, milk, water, coal, textiles, and so on) - with, let's say, 1 DM per ton and km of delivery (which would make imports from low-wage countries like India or Bangladesh pretty unprofitable) and a toll on all foreign trucks that want to travel through, or to destinations within Germany -- also 1 DM per ton and km road usage. Locally produced goods would be subsidized instead.
Foreign workers on our building lots? Nope, unless they have visa and working permit at hand. Foreign students? Nope, unless they have a student's visa. Funny pics on tobacco products? Fuck that shit. Each and any shop owner would have the right to open on Sundays as they please, even 24/7 if they please. Restaurants and pubs would have the right to allow or forbid smoking as they please. Smoking in public buildings would be permitted again. There would be ads for alcohol and tobacco again. That stupid name change from Marmelade to jam would be reversed. There would be absolutely no genetically modified ingredients in our food. Companies would have to pay taxes, even each of their subsidiaries. There would be a Tobin tax. And all loop-holes and other tax gifts would be closed.
I could list more - but this wouldn't fit into this thread anymore.

Then you stand for everything I stand against and vice versa. I want an end to borders, eventually an end to the very concept of nations. One world, a government for that world working for the survival and betterment of the entire planet and of the human race. It's a long term goal I grant you.

Walling ourselves up in little arbitrary borders and hating and fearing other people who are EXACTLY THE SAME AS US just because they happen to have been born inside a different totally arbitrary border is actual insanity.

More openness more freedom more co-operation and less small minded people building walls.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

hefty tariffs on all imported goods that can just as well be produced nationally (eg. most fruit and vegetables, honey, milk, water, coal, textiles, and so on) - with, let's say, 1 DM per ton and km of delivery (which would make imports from low-wage countries like India or Bangladesh pretty unprofitable) and a toll on all foreign trucks that want to travel through, or to destinations within Germany -- also 1 DM per ton and km road usage. Locally produced goods would be subsidized instead.

If the goods "can just as well be produced nationally," why do you need all these tariffs and subsidies to encourage people to buy them locally? I take the point about low-wage countries, but I don't think Germany imports much fruit and veg, honey, milk or water from India.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

some guy has actually spent time to track down all 72 laws that the Evil EU have forced on the UK against our will.

Thanks for posting that. A very useful thread.

As an addendum to it, here's why -- according to one of the UK negotiators at the time -- why the UK voted against several of them (not because we disagreed with them but as part of wider political maneuvering, it seems).

 

[Kara Spengler]

Thanks for posting that. A very useful thread.

As an addendum to it, here's why -- according to one of the UK negotiators at the time -- why the UK voted against several of them (not because we disagreed with them but as part of wider political maneuvering, it seems

Grraham Hughes went over the tabloid headlines about EU regs as well, he has a youtube vid about it:

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Thread (probably meaningless to anyone other than British politics and Brexit junkies like me)

 

[Tigger]

Thanks for posting that. A very useful thread.

As an addendum to it, here's why -- according to one of the UK negotiators at the time -- why the UK voted against several of them (not because we disagreed with them but as part of wider political maneuvering, it seems).

I follow guitarmoog but somehow missed his response to that thread.

I suppose that's analogous to the much reviled Christopher "Upskirting" Chope. Who killed an attempt to make upskirting illegal even though he claimed to support it, because he didn't like the manner in which it was presented.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

However, I think there shouldn't be posted workers from foreign countries AT ALL. In any country. And I do consider all other countries except for the country I live in FOREIGN countries. Anyways: If you want to work anywhere else than your own country, apply for a visa and working permit like all immigrants. You want to study in another country? Apply for a student's visa there. Nobody in any other country (especially not this wannabe "parliament" in Brussels) should have a say in that.
.

For someone being born and raised in a former communist country, you for sure have nowadays quite isolationistic and xenophobian political views which go against many of the communist's fundamental believes. What on Earth happened?

But don't fear, I exactly do know who wants to implement most parts of your political agenda:

 

[eighthdwarf Checchinato]

Then you stand for everything I stand against and vice versa. I want an end to borders, eventually an end to the very concept of nations. One world, a government for that world working for the survival and betterment of the entire planet and of the human race. It's a long term goal I grant you.

While I agree that this is a great goal to work for, I think humankind is not ready for that yet. Not in Europe, and especially not in the entire world. And we won't be for a long time to come. You would have to get rid of capitalism and make all nations existing reach the same economic and social level first. And considering that many "Third World" countries are infested with obsolete religions and nonsensical traditions they aren't willing to get rid off, there's no chance that they will come to a similar level like us for the next century at least.

Anyways: I'm not even against the idea of a united Europe, quite the contrary. However, I'm strictly against the EU as it is now: A mainly economic union, for the interests of transnational business and banks - the "advantages" for the European people are just collateral. Banks and companies have the main interest in open borders and the absence of tariffs, in the possibility to move production anywhere without hassle, in the possibility to move postal workers around like chess pawns. And this is guaranteed by the EU.
In my opinion, the EU needs to be entirely disbanded immediately, with a total debt cut - so that the current member states get their national economies in order - and created anew as a purely political union this time, but only if and when all European nations are on the same economic level, and if at least 2/3 of the entire European population show per referendums that they really do want to give up the sovereignty of their respective countries and create a kind of United States of Europe instead. Although I am convinced that this situation would never happen - at least not within my lifetime.

And

If the goods "can just as well be produced nationally," why do you need all these tariffs and subsidies to encourage people to buy them locally?

With the tariffs and subsidies, it can be guaranteed that locally produced goods remain cheaper than the same or similar goods imported from foreign countries. Even cheaper than re-imports. It's a simple way of protection of the national economy.

[...] I don't think Germany imports much fruit and veg, honey, milk or water from India.

No. But textile goods (clothes, shoes etc) sold by German companies are made in India or Bangladesh and imported to Germany - and these can be produced just as well in Germany. Same with electronics: We are absolutely able to produce electronic items ourselves, we don't need to import them from China or other countries. Or crop, fruit, and vegetables - all of which we could easily grow in sufficient amounts, depending on the seasons - there's no need to import them from Spain or Portugal. Same with water, there's no need to import it from other countries like France or Italy. Or meat. Or coal. And so on. There's plenty of goods that we could produce locally in sufficient amounts with ease. It's just that it's, unfortunately, cheaper for companies to have their goods be produced elsewhere, despite the transportation ways. Such tariffs as those I mentioned would make a stop on that insane habit by making the transport of goods produced abroad really expensive, and at the same time cheaper for these companies to produce locally for the local market.

 

[Tigger]

While I agree that this is a great goal to work for, I think humankind is not ready for that yet. Not in Europe, and especially not in the entire world. And we won't be for a long time to come. You would have to get rid of capitalism and make all nations existing reach the same economic and social level first. And considering that many "Third World" countries are infested with obsolete religions and nonsensical traditions they aren't willing to get rid off, there's no chance that they will come to a similar level like us for the next century at least.

A hell of a lot of traditions are nonsensical. Look at us in the UK, the fucking golden mace that grants power for government to sit, the ludicrous processions of black rod and all that bullshit, our judges sitting around in powdered wigs and robes - presumably to symbolically show that their thinking is stuck somewhere in the 17th century. As for religions, I have little respect for any of them but neither do I see any reason for them to prevent movement towards greater unity.

Anyways: I'm not even against the idea of a united Europe, quite the contrary. However, I'm strictly against the EU as it is now: A mainly economic union, for the interests of transnational business and banks - the "advantages" for the European people are just collateral. Banks and companies have the main interest in open borders and the absence of tariffs, in the possibility to move production anywhere without hassle, in the possibility to move postal workers around like chess pawns. And this is guaranteed by the EU.
In my opinion, the EU needs to be entirely disbanded immediately, with a total debt cut - so that the current member states get their national economies in order - and created anew as a purely political union this time, but only if and when all European nations are on the same economic level, and if at least 2/3 of the entire European population show per referendums that they really do want to give up the sovereignty of their respective countries and create a kind of United States of Europe instead. Although I am convinced that this situation would never happen - at least not within my lifetime.

Again we come to your personal pre-conditions. Look if you want to wait for traditions to end, religion to die out and for tiny countries to reach the same levels of wealth as big powerful ones you will still be waiting come the death of the universe. The EU however can help those small countries band together and in unity present the same strength to the rest of the world as the giants. The EU is one of 3 powers in the world, the other two being China and the US. Individually nations will squabble and fight and we will be back at wars. The EU has ALWAYS had ever closer political union as one of it's goals, the EU has always sought more and more protections for it's citizens.

With the tariffs and subsidies, it can be guaranteed that locally produced goods remain cheaper than the same or similar goods imported from foreign countries. Even cheaper than re-imports. It's a simple way of protection of the national economy.
No. But textile goods (clothes, shoes etc) sold by German companies are made in India or Bangladesh and imported to Germany - and these can be produced just as well in Germany. Same with electronics: We are absolutely able to produce electronic items ourselves, we don't need to import them from China or other countries. Or crop, fruit, and vegetables - all of which we could easily grow in sufficient amounts, depending on the seasons - there's no need to import them from Spain or Portugal. Same with water, there's no need to import it from other countries like France or Italy. Or meat. Or coal. And so on. There's plenty of goods that we could produce locally in sufficient amounts with ease. It's just that it's, unfortunately, cheaper for companies to have their goods be produced elsewhere, despite the transportation ways. Such tariffs as those I mentioned would make a stop on that insane habit by making the transport of goods produced abroad really expensive, and at the same time cheaper for these companies to produce locally for the local market.

There is so much going on in this last paragraph it would need pages to answer. So lets look at food. Not all food can be produced by one country. There is seasonality and climate to consider. Example, let's see you grow bananas or citrus fruit commercially in germany. The range of foods we have available to us now is due entirely to being able to source it from all over the world. You would never see orange juice again or in fact an orange. You'd have only seasonal vegetables, ever. Tomatoes would only be available for about 1/3rd of the year. Rice would be off of your menu.

Yes it is cheaper for companies to produce their goods in other countries and ship it in. It's also cheaper for the consumer. Paying someone 35p an hour is cheaper than paying someone a £10 an hour minimum wage and that gets added to the price of the product. Your solution would massively increase the cost of living, clothing and food would take up the bulk of anyone's income who isnt filthy rich, electronics or cars would be an unaffordable dream for many, poverty and subsistance living would increase massively.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

By the way, do you know what the most enjoyable daily view in the House of Commons is? Mr. Speaker's ties, of course, which are all looking very oddly outdated, colourful and strange to most viewers, so in short outstanding unique.

So it's no wonder that there's a dedicated Tumblr blog for his ties around: John Bercow's Ties

 

[Kara Spengler]

For someone being born and raised in a former communist country, you for sure have nowadays quite isolationistic and xenophobian political views which go against many of the communist's fundamental believes. What on Earth happened?

To be fair, xenophobia without malice is not unknown in some parts of the world. It is pretty obvious why though: not many locals (or people connected to them) wish to go there so they always see people of the same culture. I would not class Germany as one of those areas.

To my surprise I heard a Finn describing Finland as xenophobic (yes, he knows english pretty well). However a lot of people there also welcome outsiders. This is one of those things only people from outside the culture could answer for sure, however then we get into cultural differences where something someone outside the culture saw as normal to do may come across as rude to the other side.

 

[Kara Spengler]

And considering that many "Third World" countries are infested with obsolete religions and nonsensical traditions they aren't willing to get rid off, there's no chance that they will come to a similar level like us for the next century at least.

That is true all over the world.

The other weekend someone tried to convince me her invisible friend was correct when she learned I was an athiest. When I pointed out all the other religions in the world she just matter-of-factly said all the others were wrong and hers was the only right one.

I have no problem debating philosophy and such with anyone. However as soon as they throw the rules of logic out the window they have lost the privilege of talking to me. Note if she could substantiate why hers was right and the others not that would have been another matter (although I have yet to hear a compelling reason from anyone on that) but she did not even *try*.

That sentence skirts on the same issue but for now I will give you the benefit of the doubt that I read it wrong.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

And considering that many "Third World" countries are infested with obsolete religions and nonsensical traditions they aren't willing to get rid off, there's no chance that they will come to a similar level like us for the next century at least.

This part alone is the typical, standard Western arrogance which in former times lead to imperialism and the borders we got today in Africa and the Arabian peninsula.

This arrogance is also the main reason why China today already has so much influence in Africa, since they've been building infrastructure and investing like mad, while the rest of the world just was looking away most of the time; and why Africa is becoming China's China in this century.

Except maybe some American IT companies like Microsoft, who have been also heavily investing in African startups.

 

[Luisa Land]

But don't fear, I exactly do know who wants to implement most parts of your political agenda:

Right
the resemblances between Eight's "thoughts" to Trump's "thoughts" are amazing...
besides that both simplify political and economic processes. Not differing and discussing where is strength (in which direction it should further develop) where are weak or even dangerous elements.
We are told by Eight: No, the EU is totally bad, cause the EU is a tool of the multinational companies, but Nation is good. As if a single country would be more immune against the interests of capitalistic companies

 

[Porsupah Ree]

Margaritis Schinas, the chief spokesperson of the Commission presidency, told reporters that that Britain would have to “tell us what they want, what they really, really want” in an exhausted piece to camera.

Apart from recalling the band’s 1996 hit “Wannabe”, Mr Schinas repeated the EU’s mantra that the withdrawal agreement is not open for negotiation – effectively shooting down Theresa May’s “Plan B”, which she spelled out in parliament yesterday.

MPs draw battle lines for second referendum and extending Article 50 ahead of key votes

 

[Porsupah Ree]

From the same page, some apparent strategy updates:

Theresa May’s de-facto former deputy, Damian Green, has said he was “looking at” whether to support the Cooper and Grieve amendments, widely seen as attempts to put the Commons in control of the Brexit process.

Union boss Len McCluskey will go to a face-to-face Brexit meeting with Theresa May later this week, writes political editor Joe Watts. The Corbyn-backing leader of Unite accepted an invitation to discuss the prime minister’s Brexit plans despite the Labour leader refusing one.

Dr Sarah Wollaston, the Conservative Final Say supporter, and other “doctors in the House” are considering an amendment to trigger a vote next week, alongside moves for the Commons to “take control”. But, at a People’s Vote event, Labour MPs, a Liberal Democrat and Caroline Lucas, the Green MP, all urged patience and suggested the clash would come too soon.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Innula Zenovka said:
If the goods "can just as well be produced nationally," why do you need all these tariffs and subsidies to encourage people to buy them locally?

With the tariffs and subsidies, it can be guaranteed that locally produced goods remain cheaper than the same or similar goods imported from foreign countries. Even cheaper than re-imports. It's a simple way of protection of the national economy.

The fact that you need to impose hefty tariffs on these imported goods, though, surely means those goods can't "just as well be produced nationally" or you wouldn't need the hefty tariffs to discourage the imports. All you will end up with is German customers having to pay more for locally produced goods than they did for imported ones, which means either they can't afford to buy them or they won't be able to buy something else.

Innula Zenovka said:
[...] I don't think Germany imports much fruit and veg, honey, milk or water from India.

No. But textile goods (clothes, shoes etc) sold by German companies are made in India or Bangladesh and imported to Germany - and these can be produced just as well in Germany. Same with electronics: We are absolutely able to produce electronic items ourselves, we don't need to import them from China or other countries. Or crop, fruit, and vegetables - all of which we could easily grow in sufficient amounts, depending on the seasons - there's no need to import them from Spain or Portugal. Same with water, there's no need to import it from other countries like France or Italy. Or meat. Or coal. And so on. There's plenty of goods that we could produce locally in sufficient amounts with ease. It's just that it's, unfortunately, cheaper for companies to have their goods be produced elsewhere, despite the transportation ways. Such tariffs as those I mentioned would make a stop on that insane habit by making the transport of goods produced abroad really expensive, and at the same time cheaper for these companies to produce locally for the local market.

While I don't doubt Germany could produce smartphones and PCs very well locally, I suspect that either they'd cost far more to buy, since German workers would presumably want better pay and conditions than those enjoyed (if that's the right word) by the workers in the far east who currently make the equipment.

Alternatively, German manufacturers would build new highly automated factories, employing workers only to maintain the robots that make the products. That will probably happen pretty soon anyway, and the only question is where the factories will be built.

As to foodstuffs, a moment's thought should tell you that, while Germany certainly can produce wines, cheeses and so on, French wines and cheeses, Italian Wines and Cheeses, Spanish Wines and Cheeses and German wines and Cheeses are all very different, and people like to have a choice. Similarly, a moment's thought should also tell you that agriculture is an uncertain business and it makes sense to be able to buy and sell supplies all over the continent, in order to ameliorate local shortages and oversupply.