2020 Democratic Primary

Dakota Tebaldi

Well-known member
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
9,884
Location
Ohio
Joined SLU
02-22-2008
SLU Posts
16791
Town hall formats almost never give candidates a chance to really explain their policy positions, they are framed as questions from the every man. Joe 6 pack and crap like that. They are actually carefully scripted, and don't really go into any detail on policy, or a lot of subjects that low information voters don't know about. That format favors candidates who can't go into detail on things, like Biden. That's why Warren had such harsh criticism for the format early in her campaign. Well, she criticized it to hurt Fox's ability to sell ads, as well, but that's a long story... I agreed with her when she said town halls are bad.
It is a good point that as debates go "Town Halls" are usually the worst kind for that reason - they are scripted, approved-ahead-of-time questions that are deceitfully made to look like they're being asked impromptu by random schmucks in the audience, giving them the appearance of spontaneity and "uncensored"-ness.

But, while moderated debates are "less deceitful" in that the moderator(s) obviously has a list of pre-prepared questions, it doesn't change the fact that they're pre-prepared questions; and candidates very very rarely actually announce new and previously-unrevealed policy positions at debates of any kind.
 

Shiloh Lyric

Staying Woke
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
937
Location
A virtual world. And Pennsylvania.
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
August, 2008
A very smart lady who many of you know from SLU made a good point. I'm planning on using my Primary vote more strategically than I ever have before. Normally, I voted for who I wanted the nominee to be. Even though it's almost always decided by number of votes and delegate count before PA even holds our Primary. I see the writing on the wall. I'm a Progressive, but I'm practical about it. Right now, we're a very wounded country. Many in emotional, mental or even physical pain directly caused by Trump and this administration. We need to heal. If you break a leg, you don't start off right afterwards by running. I'm sorry, but it's just not how it works.

Bernie has great ideas, but I believe 100% that Elizabeth Warren is the one who had the wherewithal to pull it all off. We're not getting her, and I don't think Bernie can get it done. Despite what people say about Biden, Bernie is going to be 79 before we vote, he's already had one heart attack, and on Super Tuesday night he did NOT look at all well. If my elderly uncle looked like that, I would immediately make him lie down. And you can roll your eyes all you want, it's true.

And I think, with what we're left with (and, to be clear, I'm very unhappy with what we're left with out of an initial crop of really great candidates), if any of the two can beat Trump, it's Biden. And that's coming from someone who lives smack-dab in Trump county, PA, with close ties to even Trumpier County, PA. A progressive group I'm loosely a part of (not a paying member just yet) has endorsed Bernie for the nominee. But after heavily canvassing around here for a Progressive candidate for our Congressional rep in 2018 (a Mennonite, no less), I can tell you that I can't see PA going in that direction, just yet. We're not the only state in that predicament. But I can see people voting for Biden. The ones who voted for Trump but aren't quite comfortable with doing it again. But who will if it's between Trump and the "Socialist".

However, I AM still a Progressive. Because I think Biden can win, and because I can see the direction this is already going, I was just going to vote for him. But, that very smart lady made a good point in an appeal to Warren supporters. So I'll vote for Bernie in the Primary, because I still want to send a message. That many of Bernie's policies are where we need to head. And a Biden administration needs to heed this part of the Democratic party, also. A lot of progressives are exactly where I'm at, right now. I can live with healing under Joe Biden. He's experienced pain, himself...a lot...and he knows that, as a nation, we need to heal. He can do that. But I want him to know that there are still many of us who want this party to continue to the left. We've come a long way since I was a kid growing up in a household of Blue Dog Democrats, but we have a lot further to go.
 

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
24,062
SLU Posts
18459
It's surprising to an extent because the reported polling has been better than the Super Tuesday result. You're also assuming a lot about what people are finding when they are canvassing. Nothing has been posted about that. What makes you think they're not engaging with these voters? No one has posted anything to the contrary. You don't know what his operation looks like and it hasn't been discussed here in any meaningful way. I know that when I've gone out to canvass that I have been in black and brown communities.
Quite possibly people are engaging with voters, and if they are, I would find it very useful to learn what they have to say.

However, if they did engage with voters, they seem to be keeping remarkably quiet about what registered Democrats who might be expected to favour Bernie Sanders' policies were telling them about why they preferred other candidates.

Maybe I'm being misled by expectations based on British elections, since over here I'd expect to see activists discussing the reactions they'd received from the public while canvassing, as part of a wider discussion about how better to overcome whatever reservations some people clearly have, at least in some cases, about supporting a candidate whose policies would clearly benefit them in many cases.

Are they finding it's the policies that are the problem, or is it something about the candidate, or his campaign, or what? And what, if anything, have people found they can say that helps allay voters' particular misgivings?

These are certainly things I'd be considering if I were an activist campaigning for Sanders because I'd want to know how best to win the support of people who I'd expect to be supporting my policies and whose votes I'd need in order to see those policies implemented for what I viewed as the good of everyone, and I find it a bit surprising that this discussion -- which must be going on somewhere -- isn't more public.

This is the sort of data we're seeing here, and I just hope US Democrats don't find themselves reading similar pieces at the end of the year:


Five more things we discovered about Labour members | YouGov
 

Aribeth Zelin

Faeryfox
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
4,140
SL Rez
2004
Joined SLU
03-11-2011
SLU Posts
9410
A very smart lady who many of you know from SLU made a good point. I'm planning on using my Primary vote more strategically than I ever have before. Normally, I voted for who I wanted the nominee to be. Even though it's almost always decided by number of votes and delegate count before PA even holds our Primary. I see the writing on the wall. I'm a Progressive, but I'm practical about it. Right now, we're a very wounded country. Many in emotional, mental or even physical pain directly caused by Trump and this administration. We need to heal. If you break a leg, you don't start off right afterwards by running. I'm sorry, but it's just not how it works.

Bernie has great ideas, but I believe 100% that Elizabeth Warren is the one who had the wherewithal to pull it all off. We're not getting her, and I don't think Bernie can get it done. Despite what people say about Biden, Bernie is going to be 79 before we vote, he's already had one heart attack, and on Super Tuesday night he did NOT look at all well. If my elderly uncle looked like that, I would immediately make him lie down. And you can roll your eyes all you want, it's true.

And I think, with what we're left with (and, to be clear, I'm very unhappy with what we're left with out of an initial crop of really great candidates), if any of the two can beat Trump, it's Biden. And that's coming from someone who lives smack-dab in Trump county, PA, with close ties to even Trumpier County, PA. A progressive group I'm loosely a part of (not a paying member just yet) has endorsed Bernie for the nominee. But after heavily canvassing around here for a Progressive candidate for our Congressional rep in 2018 (a Mennonite, no less), I can tell you that I can't see PA going in that direction, just yet. We're not the only state in that predicament. But I can see people voting for Biden. The ones who voted for Trump but aren't quite comfortable with doing it again. But who will if it's between Trump and the "Socialist".

However, I AM still a Progressive. Because I think Biden can win, and because I can see the direction this is already going, I was just going to vote for him. But, that very smart lady made a good point in an appeal to Warren supporters. So I'll vote for Bernie in the Primary, because I still want to send a message. That many of Bernie's policies are where we need to head. And a Biden administration needs to heed this part of the Democratic party, also. A lot of progressives are exactly where I'm at, right now. I can live with healing under Joe Biden. He's experienced pain, himself...a lot...and he knows that, as a nation, we need to heal. He can do that. But I want him to know that there are still many of us who want this party to continue to the left. We've come a long way since I was a kid growing up in a household of Blue Dog Democrats, but we have a lot further to go.
Sending a message is why I'm considering voting for Warren in primary anyway. Because I think she got screwed over. I think a combination of maligning from media interests, who do not wish to see her [or Bernie, but her especially] in office, and just plain old sexism - I'm still a bit mad at all the men who hopped in after we had such lovely women running, along the progressive-moderate spectrum - and this includes both Biden and Bernie. I might not count myself as a dem, but its because I don't like tribalism in politics. I want to vote based on what I think is best - unfortunately, its been a long time since that's involved voting for anyone other than democrats. But its another point of 'fox you' to the whole mess for me.
 

bubblesort

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
1,990
Bernie has great ideas, but I believe 100% that Elizabeth Warren is the one who had the wherewithal to pull it all off.
Yeah, she ran a good campaign. I might have argued against Warren when she was a candidate, but she was somebody I could live with voting for in the general.

And I think, with what we're left with (and, to be clear, I'm very unhappy with what we're left with out of an initial crop of really great candidates), if any of the two can beat Trump, it's Biden. And that's coming from someone who lives smack-dab in Trump county, PA, with close ties to even Trumpier County, PA.
I'm right here with you, geographically... not that far away, at least.

I disagree with you, though, because I just don't think Biden can win over Trump voters. He triggers irrational anti-Obama rage in them. MAGA hat wearers voting for him would be as unlikely as Bernie supporters voting for Bloomberg.

Bernie, on the other hand, wants to give people health care. You've seen all the patreons for medical bills. They are all over the place in Trump country. Everybody has friends who have had to restort to patreon to avoid losing a foot, or getting a necissary procedure that their useless health insurance won't cover. Medicare for all speaks to those people, even with the 'socialism' label. Even Trump himself has publicly said that he will have problems with his base if he has to run against medicare for all. I don't care how much of a redneck you are, when you get the bill for an ambulance ride, you don't want whatever Biden and Trump are selling. You want medicare for all. That's why Bernie out-polls Biden among moderates and conservatives.
 

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
24,062
SLU Posts
18459
I think if I had the opportunity to submit a question to the remaining candidates, it would be on these lines:

When you take office, next January, both the US and the world in general will be dealing with the continuing consequences -- economic, social and medical -- of a pandemic that, when before the end of last year you were drawing up the policies and plans on which you hope to fight the general election, you couldn't possibly have anticipated.

Has anything that's transpired since the start of the Covid-19 outbreak -- particularly what looks like the start of another world recession on the scale of 2008 combined with the unprecedented strains that Covid-19 will place on US health-care -- caused you to rethink your policy priorities for your first administration and, if so, in what ways?
I'd be very interested to know what supporters of the various remaining candidates think the answers should be.
 

Beebo Brink

Climate Apocalypse Alarmist
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
7,116
SL Rez
2006
However, I AM still a Progressive. Because I think Biden can win, and because I can see the direction this is already going, I was just going to vote for him. But, that very smart lady made a good point in an appeal to Warren supporters. So I'll vote for Bernie in the Primary, because I still want to send a message.
It's a tough decision, no question. I don't think I can go there because "message" votes can backfire. It hasn't been that long ago since many Brits voted for Brexit, thinking they were sending a message and to their surprise Leave won. Same for any messages sent to Hillary Clinton when Trump won. I won't cast my vote for anyone I truly don't want as the nominee, so I'm either voting Biden or writing in Elizabeth Warren, depending on my mood that day.
 

Cristalle

Lady of the House
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
1,376
Location
Flori-duh
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
July 8, 2008
SLU Posts
2903
I called you out because you were making a broad claim about voters, which included me and others in this thread and forum. You deserved to be berated in that moment. Innula is a saint to keep engaging you.
I forgot and gave an incomplete answer, mea culpa. She, unlike a lot of people, is not eager to think the worst of people and is good at actually discussing ideas versus engaging in cancel culture. I was wrong to leave out the other part of the answer (which you probably haven't read and don't really care about anyway). She saw the hole and asked about it in a constructive manner that led to a better exchange of ideas.
 
  • 1Thanks
Reactions: Innula Zenovka

Blue Green

New member
Joined
Nov 20, 2018
Messages
14
I found a good Chris Hedges take on it this morning:

I've always admired Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, and Chris Hedges, and am convinced that nominating Biden will ultimately give us 4 more years of Trumpie. Those disaffected voters pummeled by the bad economy are still out there, and they need/want a revolution as opposed to 4 more years of neoliberal policies.
 

Cristalle

Lady of the House
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
1,376
Location
Flori-duh
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
July 8, 2008
SLU Posts
2903
 

Cristalle

Lady of the House
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
1,376
Location
Flori-duh
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
July 8, 2008
SLU Posts
2903
I found a good Chris Hedges take on it this morning:

I've always admired Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, and Chris Hedges, and am convinced that nominating Biden will ultimately give us 4 more years of Trumpie. Those disaffected voters pummeled by the bad economy are still out there, and they need/want a revolution as opposed to 4 more years of neoliberal policies.
from the article said:
By voting for Biden, you endorse the humiliation of courageous women such as Anita Hill who confronted their abusers. You vote for the architects of the endless wars in the Middle East. You vote for the apartheid state in Israel. You vote for wholesale surveillance of the public by government intelligence agencies and the abolition of due process and habeas corpus. You vote for austerity programs, including the destruction of welfare and cuts to Social Security. You vote for NAFTA, free trade deals, de-industrialization, a decline in wages, the loss of hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs and the offshoring of jobs to underpaid workers who toil in sweatshops in China or Vietnam. You vote for the assault on public education and the transfer of federal funds to for-profit and Christian charter schools. You vote for the doubling of our prison population, the tripling and quadrupling of sentences and huge expansion of crimes meriting the death penalty. You vote for militarized police who gun down poor people of color with impunity. You vote against the Green New Deal and immigration reform. You vote for limiting a woman’s right to abortion and reproductive rights. You vote for a segregated public-school system in which the wealthy receive educational opportunities and poor people of color are denied a chance. You vote for punitive levels of student debt and the inability to free yourself of debt obligations through bankruptcy. You vote for deregulating the banking industry and the abolition of Glass-Steagall. You vote for the for-profit insurance and pharmaceutical corporations and against universal health care. You vote for bloated defense budgets. You vote for the use of unlimited oligarchic and corporate money to buy our elections. You vote for a politician who during his time in the Senate abjectly served the interests of MBNA, the largest independent credit card company headquartered in Delaware, which also employed Biden’s son Hunter.

There are no substantial political differences between the Democrats and Republicans. We have only the illusion of participatory democracy. The Democrats and their liberal apologists adopt tolerant positions on issues regarding race, religion, immigration, women’s rights and sexual identity and pretend this is politics. The right wing uses those on the margins of society as scapegoats. The culture wars mask the reality. Both parties are full partners in the reconfiguration of American society into a form of neofeudalism. It only depends on how you want it dressed up.

“By fostering an illusion among the powerless classes” that it can make their interests a priority, the Democratic Party “pacifies and thereby defines the style of an opposition party in an inverted totalitarian system,” political philosopher Sheldon Wolin writes.

The Democrats will once again offer up a least-worst alternative while, in fact, doing little or nothing to thwart the march toward corporate totalitarianism. What the public wants and deserves will again be ignored for what the corporate lobbyists demand. If we do not respond soon to the social and economic catastrophe that has been visited on most of the population, we will be unable to thwart the rise of corporate tyranny and a Christian fascism.
Sounds about right.
 

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
24,062
SLU Posts
18459
Sounds about right.
And voting for Bernie Sanders means voting for a man who, even after Sandy Hook, apparently considered gun control a matter for the individual states.

It would, nevertheless, be unreasonable to hold that against him since he's since then changed his position, and good for him.

Is it any less unreasonable, I wonder, to blame Biden for his treatment of Anita Hill or " the assault on public education and the transfer of federal funds to for-profit and Christian charter schools"?

As you'll know, we in the Labour Party here in the UK are occupied trying to elect a new leader at the moment.

All factions are being more or less civilised with each other both since we all want to put behind us the sort of fights we've had for the last five years between Corbyn supporters and the rest and because we know that, whoever wins, all factions in the party will need to unite behind the eventual leader and to work both with him or her, and with each other, to stand any chance of beating the Tories, and throwing insults at each other won't help that any.

I honestly wonder how some of Sanders' supporters (and, of course, some of Biden's too) expect other candidates' supporters to feel about working alongside them later in the year, after some of the things they're saying about each other now.

Save your venom for your real opposition.