Coronavirus Updates

Kara Spengler

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Beebo Brink

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I don't think, at least in the UK, anyone's posing it in terms of either/or; rather, there's a whole host of different policy decisions to be taken and reviewed, all of them with potentially positive and adverse consequences for different groups, so policy-makers are going to have to deal with calculations like that all the time.
I was responding to a specific statement, which does seem to frame this policy-making as a conflict between "everyone" leading a normal life versus "saving the elderly":
What would be worse for society: suspending normal life as we know it for months and suffering the social and economic consequences? Or letting thousands of people — mainly elderly — die from coronavirus?
I see this as a false choice, a fabricated scenario. How would a "normal life" trade-off even work? In what universe can we escape these social and economic consequences?

To reach the stage where thousands of "mainly elderly" people died, the virus would have to infect hundreds of thousands of non-elderly people. Yes, some of those non-fatal cases might be mild, but not all of them. Your'e going to have tens of thousands of very sick people staying home and/or overwhelming the medical system and affecting every commercial sector by their absence.

If you refuse to suspend concerts, conventions, campaign rallies, football games, and all other large gatherings, everyone gets sick. There's no magic formula whereby 98% of the population goes about its business untouched and the unlucky feeble 2% die off in a corner somewhere.

If it's too costly to suspend normal activities, then you're guaranteeing there's not going to be any normality for quite some time to come, because COVID-19 will spread that much faster and that much farther.
 

Beebo Brink

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Rachel Maddow did an illuminating in depth exposition of the situation tonight and yesterday.
The show tonight discussed one of the real trade-offs we're facing. Currently dozens of California medical staff are in self-quarantine after their exposure to the patient with coronavirus. This is a luxury we won't be able to sustain for very long. As the patient case load continues to grow, staff who aren't showing symptoms will have to be pulled back into service because there's no one else available to help out.
 

Dakota Tebaldi

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“When someone has flu-like symptoms, you want them to to seek medical care,” said Sabrina Corlette, a Georgetown University professor and co-director of the Center on Health Insurance Reforms. “If they have one of these junk plans and they know they might be on the hook for more than they can afford to seek that care, a lot of them just won’t, and that is a public health concern.”
Yup - and again, this is the same exact thing that keeps people going to work when they're sick even when there's not a pandemic. If you take off sick, you NEED to have a doctor's note if you want to keep your job. Since nobody's doctor can see them today (or at least that's super-unusual), that means going to an ER (which insurance won't pay for if it's not life-threatening) or an urgent care clinic (which insurance may or may not pay for depending on the coin flip) and risking a thousand-dollar bill, so most people are like "whatever, I'm just going to work sick".
 

Pamela

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The show tonight discussed one of the real trade-offs we're facing. Currently dozens of California medical staff are in self-quarantine after their exposure to the patient with coronavirus. This is a luxury we won't be able to sustain for very long. As the patient case load continues to grow, staff who aren't showing symptoms will have to be pulled back into service because there's no one else available to help out.
Earlier today an Expert said if you do get sick, call your doctor, don’t go to a medical facility. I guess as a sort of self triage.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I was responding to a specific statement, which does seem to frame this policy-making as a conflict between "everyone" leading a normal life versus "saving the elderly":

I see this as a false choice, a fabricated scenario. How would a "normal life" trade-off even work? In what universe can we escape these social and economic consequences?

To reach the stage where thousands of "mainly elderly" people died, the virus would have to infect hundreds of thousands of non-elderly people. Yes, some of those non-fatal cases might be mild, but not all of them. Your'e going to have tens of thousands of very sick people staying home and/or overwhelming the medical system and affecting every commercial sector by their absence.

If you refuse to suspend concerts, conventions, campaign rallies, football games, and all other large gatherings, everyone gets sick. There's no magic formula whereby 98% of the population goes about its business untouched and the unlucky feeble 2% die off in a corner somewhere.

If it's too costly to suspend normal activities, then you're guaranteeing there's not going to be any normality for quite some time to come, because COVID-19 will spread that much faster and that much farther.
I don't think works that way, though. As the article says,
China has made its decision, prioritising control of the virus with draconian measures that at one point led to movement restrictions on half a billion people. Factories were closed, travel was banned and quarantines were enforced with drones. It worked but the world is now counting the economic cost in manufacturing shortages.

As Jeremy Hunt, the former health secretary, pointed out today, the epidemic in Wuhan peaked with 5 per cent of the population infected. British contingency plans are preparing for a “reasonable worst case” scenario in which 80 per cent of the population is infected.

“In terms of the number of lives lost, there is a massive difference, hundreds of thousands of lives difference, if you can contain it to less than 5 per cent,” Mr Hunt said.
I don't see many places, and certainly not the UK or the USA, introducing Chinese-style measures and locking down whole cities, effective though this was and no matter how many hundreds of thousands of lives it saves.

That doesn't mean I see them doing nothing, though. Rather, I see them making a whole series of specific decisions -- when, and for how long to close schools and universities, whether or not to close public transport, including taxis, car-sharing and Uber, and in what circumstances (the London Underground must be a wonderful method for spreading airborne viruses), whether or not to prohibit public gatherings (not just sporting events, but political demonstrations and acts of public worship), whether or not to close bars and restaurants, and so on.

The UK seems already to have taken the strategic decision to have accepted the fact that up to 80% of the population will, eventually, be infected, to try to delay that as long as possible, and to use the time to try to get preparations in place for when we do have a mass epidemic.

Nothing's going to be normal then, I agree, but I don't see the UK, at least, going into a state of complete lock-down to try to contain the virus, since it would be politically impossible.
 

Beebo Brink

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Nothing's going to be normal then, I agree, but I don't see the UK, at least, going into a state of complete lock-down to try to contain the virus, since it would be politically impossible.
We're talking at cross-purposes, for reasons I can't discern. I'm not advocating a complete lock-down, or any of the most draconian measures taken by China; they're simply not feasible in a democratic society.

Again, the article which you posted made a very specific statement: that there is a choice between maintaining "normal activities" at the cost of some elderly lives OR taking measures that curb the virus, but that affect our social and financial sector. What measures is rather vague, but there are many that can have a negative economic effect without going full China authoritarian.

My argument is that there is no way to chose that first option. It's a fake option because if we all go about our normal activity, giving free rein to the spread of coronavirus, then the disease itself will shut down those "normal activities" anyway. As more and more people become ill, you won't have to cancel events, people will simply stop attending gatherings, they'll avoid stores, they'll cancel flights and vacations, they'll stay home regardless of whether they're ordered to or not.

The choices we face are which normal activities to deliberately disrupt and to what degree and how soon, but there is no avenue toward maintaining our current social/financial health. There is no sacrificial offering of old people that will save us from some pain.
 

Caliandris

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I have a practical bent. I try to accept the things I can't change, but change or fix those that I can change or fix. I don't want to spread fear and panic, but I do want to think through the things that we can do, particularly to protect people like Beebo and my son, from the possible effects or the virus spreading. I've just read this Smithsonian article about the Spanish flu of 1918 and have learned a considerable amount from it. This virus is not anywhere near the virulence and mortality of the 1918 pandemic... but it came as a shock to me to learn that neither was the first wave of the 1918 flu. It seems to me that we need to be planning far more than just how to deal with people becoming ill and having to self isolate, or isolating communities with a lot of people suffering from Covid-19. Hopefully we won't need food supplies in dispersed areas or people to look after children or pets, but....

How the Horrific 1918 Flu Spread Across America
 

Caliandris

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Incidentally, elderberry syrup has in clinical trials been found to be effective in avoiding infection and reducing the severity of infection with common colds and flu (google elderberry syrup research). I have no evidence that it would also be effective for Covid-19 but it can't hurt! This is a current recipe which adds ginger and uses honey to sweeten it. I use my grandmother's alternative which replaces about ten times the sugar or honey in sugar, which keeps much better.
Homemade Elderberry Syrup | Love and Olive Oil
 

Ghost Pepper

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AP FACT CHECK: Democrats distort coronavirus readiness

They claim that the CDC and NIH got less money under Trump. He tried but Congress actually increased the budget due to bipartisan support for those agencies. There is though a CDC grant program for state and local public health emergency preparedness that got cuts but that happened before Trump took over.
 
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Kara Spengler

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Earlier today an Expert said if you do get sick, call your doctor, don’t go to a medical facility. I guess as a sort of self triage.
Call your doctor? Was that a serious suggestion?

No matter how good your insurance and how critical the most you can do is leave a message for your doctor and hope they call you back. MAYBE you can reach their assistant.