Nobody Cares: PRS

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

I was just going to like your post but then I thought that a like could be misinterpreted to think I liked the results of

I usually default to the Thanks button when anything else won't do.

I also laughed at your dilemma.

 

[Salome]

I'm not accusing anyone here of being antisemitic.

One of the biggest problems with certain pockets of the left right now (especially the Bro left and their complicit cool girl compatriots) is the top-down dismissal of “identity politics” that they think gives them the right to be as misogynistic or racist or homophobic or (insert offensive nonsense here) as they want in their language because the only thing that really matters is economics. Then they end up doing things like booing civil rights icons and we’re supposed to pretend that isn’t a leadership issue.

The normal human reaction to being informed you’ve been employing known dogwhistles is “oh wow, I never learned that before, what terminology is preferred when discussing this subject?” But you have to give a fuck about other people to do that. Instead, all too often, you see the defense of denying the dogwhistle or using the tired tactic of pretending like the measure of discrimination is the user’s intent more than their actual words and actions. It‘s one way that the white nationalist agenda keeps “middle America” at a 101 level of dealing with racism when we should be far beyond there by now. White Americans get to debate their “intent” and whether something “counts” as racism, etc, while dismissing scholars and civil rights leaders.

This segment of the left that only focuses on economics and dismisses civil rights as superfluous and only worth supporting if it falls in line with their economic agenda is one reason I’ve completely abandoned and will never support certain candidates. Because:

And when people start blaming international financiers and bankers, or "neo-liberals" or whatever for being citizens of nowhere, blind to any national interest and visiting suffering and inequality on the innocent workers by sabotaging government plans for their own selfish ends, then, at least historically, pretty quickly they start blaming the Jews.

^^^

 

[Clara D.]

I was just going to like your post but then I thought that a like could be misinterpreted to think I liked the results of Reaganomics.

I like that you're tracking! One of the worst things to ever happen to this country were "Reaganomics". When I hear people lament about a great leader and economic thinker he was, I want to vomit.

Next worse thing - "Trumpfuckery" of Foreign Affairs and Trade. When we come out of this (if we do) we'll be lucky to have even a shell of a country left and a modicum of respect.

I think part of Gen X's attitude is because we grew up during Reaganomics... Welp, we're fucked and not much we can do about it!

 

[Han Held]

I think part of Gen X's attitude is because we grew up during Reaganomics... Welp, we're fucked and not much we can do about it!

I'd tend to agree -I'm sure that shaped a lot of my attitudes, at least. Esp seeing everyone involved in Iran-Contra essentially walking off scot-free...

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Still on the subject of the "banks rule the world" trope and antisemitism, here's an example of it out in the wild, which has been much discussed in the UK recently, for obvious reasons:

If you can’t see antisemitism, it’s time to open your eyes | Michael Segalov

Jeremy Corbyn isn’t alone – everyone in the Labour party should have recognised how offensive that mural was, writes journalist Michael Segalov

www.theguardian.com

 

[Isabeau]

Long-ish read.

Finland is winning the war on fake news. Other nations want the blueprint

Russia's neighbor has developed a plan for countering misinformation. Can it be exported to the rest of the world?

www.cnn.com

 

[Free]

We're here, we're queer and we watch the Hallmark Channel's corny Christmas movies, too

I'm a sucker for those sappy, unrealistic, woefully undiverse Hallmark Channel Christmas movies. Thankfully, queer couples finally make an appearance.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Anya Ristow]

The normal human reaction to being informed you’ve been employing known dogwhistles is “oh wow, I never learned that before, what terminology is preferred when discussing this subject?”

The empathetic reaction to hearing dogwhistles is to wonder if you really believe the person is rotten, or are instead willing to consider naive, or careless, or culturally unaware, or a not very awesome communicator, or just less cynical than you, and maybe ask them, "is that your intent?" before assuming the worst.

But you have to give a fuck about other people to do that.

Yep.

Instead, all too often, you see the defense of denying the dogwhistle

Nobody likes to be told you're willing to believe the worst about them. Can you not see the offense in that? Are you at your best when you've been insulted? If what you are hoping for is, “oh wow, I never learned that before, what terminology is preferred when discussing this subject?”, then maybe give that response an opportunity to happen.

This segment of the left that only focuses on economics and dismisses civil rights as superfluous

Who's dismissing civil rights as superfluous? FWIW "that segment of the left" thinks they are backing a candidate with a strong civil rights record.

And someone with a Jewish heritage FFS.

 

[Cristalle]

People that care about policy do not exclude women's issues or racism. That's just a myth the Clintonistas tell themselves to vilify people supporting Bernie Sanders instead of realizing that she was a crappy candidate that propped Trump up because he was the only candidate she could beat and she still lost. And no she's not a "civil rights icon." When the fuck did that happen? Just because she got elected as a Senator? She wasn't beaten or arrested, didn't write any seminal policy. She did good work to help children when Bernie Sanders was getting arrested, and walking picket lines.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

"Don't be evil"

 

[Anya Ristow]

And no she's not a "civil rights icon." When the fuck did that happen?

I think she's talking about John Lewis. I googled "booing civil rights icons", then narrowed it with some 2016 terms and found references to booing John Lewis at the convention.

I can't speak for the convention delegates and I offer no excuses, but for those who didn't go through it, Bernie supporters suffered HRC being made out to be a civil rights icon while Bernie's role was diminished and even denied, and John Lewis, specifically, had a role in it. He says he didn't mean to disparage Sanders or his supporters and he says he didn't deny Sanders' civil rights role, but there was some contention that was still fresh at the time of the convention.

The unrest at the Nevada convention was after the Sanders delegation suffered though a presentation extolling HRC's civil rights record just before the fake vote.

 

[Cristalle]

I think she's talking about John Lewis. I googled "booing civil rights icons", then narrowed it with some 2016 terms and found references to booing John Lewis at the convention.

I can't speak for the convention delegates and I offer no excuses, but for those who didn't go through it, Bernie supporters suffered HRC being made out to be a civil rights icon while Bernie's role was diminished and even denied, and John Lewis, specifically, had a role in it. He says he didn't mean to disparage Sanders or his supporters and he says he didn't deny Sanders' civil rights role, but there was some contention that was still fresh at the time of the convention.

The unrest at the Nevada convention was after the Sanders delegation suffered though a presentation extolling HRC's civil rights record just before the fake vote.

I've heard that term assigned to her more than once and it was used here, which I find laughable. When the hell did anybody know who Hillary Clinton was until she became first lady? She wasn't a civil rights icon, that is just revisionist history to puff up her qualifications to be president.

 

[Beebo Brink]

The empathetic reaction to hearing dogwhistles is to wonder if you really believe the person is rotten, or are instead willing to consider naive, or careless, or culturally unaware, or a not very awesome communicator, or just less cynical than you, and maybe ask them, "is that your intent?" before assuming the worst.

I'm not a mind-reader, so I make no assumptions about why a person would use a well-known, historically toxic dog whistle. I saw it and I pointed it out -- and if you look at any of my posts you'll see I didn't accuse anyone of anti-Semitism, I just pointed out they were using an anti-Semitic trope.

If a person's intent is harmless and innocent, then they should welcome the knowledge that they're using a dog whistle and stop blowing it. Period.

 

[Cristalle]

No, you just assumed that the banker stereotype was being used, when there was no evidence of that, and that this person trawls around on hate sites to pick up that kind of language and use it. Can't even allow for the fact that it was a logical connection to make when actually talking about the financial industry. Other people here didn't even see the connection until you went off.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

People that care about policy do not exclude women's issues or racism. That's just a myth the Clintonistas tell themselves to vilify people supporting Bernie Sanders instead of realizing that she was a crappy candidate that propped Trump up because he was the only candidate she could beat and she still lost. And no she's not a "civil rights icon." When the fuck did that happen? Just because she got elected as a Senator? She wasn't beaten or arrested, didn't write any seminal policy. She did good work to help children when Bernie Sanders was getting arrested, and walking picket lines.

Hillary's main problem was that she was an ambitious and competent first lady who was actually engaged in politics instead of baking cakes and showing up for fundraisers, which pissed off the press and led to 20 years of gaslighting.

Confessions of a Clinton reporter: The media’s 5 unspoken rules for covering Hillary

Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology, culture, science, the climate crisis, money...

www.vox.com

She would have made a damn fine president. A bit right wing, maybe, but when the other party is running actual nazis...

 

[Jolene Benoir]

No, you just assumed that the banker stereotype was being used, when there was no evidence of that, and that this person trawls around on hate sites to pick up that kind of language and use it. Can't even allow for the fact that it was a logical connection to make when actually talking about the financial industry. Other people here didn't even see the connection until you went off.

Given your predilection for regular viewing of those who traffic in GOP/Alt-Right talking points and destructive conspiracy theories, and trying to force that kind of garbage down our throats, sure, why would it be a stretch that you might have picked up other less-than-desirable terminology? Nobody said you were anti-semitic.

I believe the term was useful idiot. I think that may well apply and here's my reasoning. In both of these cases, rather than simply issue a mea culpa, stating that you now understand why people object to such things with an emphasis upon having learned something new, you dug your heels in, in both cases, and pretend that you have been oh-so wronged. That is not the reaction of someone who understands just how toxic certain agendas have been both historically and present tense, nor is it the reaction of someone who genuinely wishes to be aware of others' understandable reaction to that kind of garbage being spouted in addition to a desire to not cause further offense.

No, of course, you play the injured party in both instances. Don't play the "other people didn't see it until you said something card". Multiple people saw it and commented, just as they had when you also attempted to force other garbage down our throats. In both cases, you attempt to alter the reality of the situation spouting falsehoods such as this one.

Get off your cross and perhaps attempt to see things through a lens other than your own wounded pride.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

No, you just assumed that the banker stereotype was being used, when there was no evidence of that, and that this person trawls around on hate sites to pick up that kind of language and use it. Can't even allow for the fact that it was a logical connection to make when actually talking about the financial industry. Other people here didn't even see the connection until you went off.

Quite apart from the fact that some people -- well, me certainly -- think that the statement "the bankers run the world" is factually mistaken and based on a view of how capitalism works that is -- at least to my mind -- not only naive and fundamentally flawed, but also dangerously attractive to populists of both the left and right, you do now know that a lot of people do consider the trope antisemitic -- I've already mentioned the controversy in the UK about Jeremy Corbyn's initial support for this mural:

Freedom for Humanity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, you may recall the response when Donald Trump suggested much the same thing in his closing campaign ad of 2016

Is Donald Trump’s Closing Campaign Ad Anti-Semitic?

Donald Trump has released what seems like the closing-argument ad of his campaign, and several people are pointing out that the whole thing has rather...

slate.com

(A good example, incidentally, of how it's a trope popular with antisemites on both the left and the right).

I don't presume to speak for Beebo, but I wouldn't describe it as "a dog-whistle" in the way you used it, because that suggests an element of intentionality, and I certainly wouldn't want to ascribe malign motivations to you.

However, throughout my life I've been discovering that turns of phrase and assumptions I'd grown up considering perfectly innocuous and in everyday use do not, in fact, always seem that way to other people, which is hardly surprising, when you come to think of what was considered normal and acceptable in polite society during the 1950s and 60s.

Whenever someone's pointed out to me what I'm doing, my automatic response has always been to apologise for my thoughtless and ill-chosen words, to explain I hope that my interlocutor will accept that no offence was intended, and to make a mental note not to use that particular phrase or trope in future unless I actually do want to offend people -- that's basic good manners, as far as I'm concerned.

It's not difficult to discover why many people do perceive antisemitic overtones in the "bankers rule the world" trope, combining as it does the idea of an international conspiracy to rule the world, as outlined in the Tsarist forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, with the traditional association between Jews and finance.

If you're interested, you can find very illuminating discussions of its history and how and why it's thought to lead all too easily to overt antisemitism in both Antony Julius' Trials of the Diaspora: A History of Anti-Semitism in England and Deborah Lipstadt's Antisemitism here and now.

 

[Jolene Benoir]

People that care about policy do not exclude women's issues or racism. That's just a myth the Clintonistas tell themselves to vilify people supporting Bernie Sanders instead of realizing that she was a crappy candidate that propped Trump up because he was the only candidate she could beat and she still lost. And no she's not a "civil rights icon." When the fuck did that happen? Just because she got elected as a Senator? She wasn't beaten or arrested, didn't write any seminal policy. She did good work to help children when Bernie Sanders was getting arrested, and walking picket lines.

Bullshit. They claim to care about women's issues or racism, but clearly think that economic issues take a higher priority aka "A rising tide will lift all boats" mentality. You display it. Other Bernie supporters display it. We've had this argument many times. You repeatedly dismiss women's issues, race issues as "identity politics" while touting his "economic issues". You continuously state that the "white vote" must be courted while dismissing any concerns that poc may have over his lack of direction at anything other than economics.; Identity politics, indeed.

Read that whole exchange, multiple pages of it
Democratic Party Presidential Candidates for 2020

 

[Cristalle]

Hillary's main problem was that she was an ambitious and competent first lady who was actually engaged in politics instead of baking cakes and showing up for fundraisers, which pissed off the press and led to 20 years of gaslighting.

Confessions of a Clinton reporter: The media’s 5 unspoken rules for covering Hillary

Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology, culture, science, the climate crisis, money...

www.vox.com

She would have made a damn fine president. A bit right wing, maybe, but when the other party is running actual nazis...

I'm not going to disagree with you on the first point because although it's not fair, it's generally true. Things have gone downhill from there. And some of that is of her own making. As to how good could she be, I have my reservations. The bipartisan screwing of the country with regard to war is a big concern, and there she would not be any better than Bush.

 

[Cristalle]

Quite apart from the fact that some people -- well, me certainly -- think that the statement "the bankers run the world" is factually mistaken and based on a view of how capitalism works that is -- at least to my mind -- not only naive and fundamentally flawed, but also dangerously attractive to populists of both the left and right, you do now know that a lot of people do consider the trope antisemitic -- I've already mentioned the controversy in the UK about Jeremy Corbyn's initial support for this mural:

Freedom for Humanity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, you may recall the response when Donald Trump suggested much the same thing in his closing campaign ad of 2016

Is Donald Trump’s Closing Campaign Ad Anti-Semitic?

Donald Trump has released what seems like the closing-argument ad of his campaign, and several people are pointing out that the whole thing has rather...

slate.com

(A good example, incidentally, of how it's a trope popular with antisemites on both the left and the right).

I don't presume to speak for Beebo, but I wouldn't describe it as "a dog-whistle" in the way you used it, because that suggests an element of intentionality, and I certainly wouldn't want to ascribe malign motivations to you.

However, throughout my life I've been discovering that turns of phrase and assumptions I'd grown up considering perfectly innocuous and in everyday use do not, in fact, always seem that way to other people, which is hardly surprising, when you come to think of what was considered normal and acceptable in polite society during the 1950s and 60s.

Whenever someone's pointed out to me what I'm doing, my automatic response has always been to apologise for my thoughtless and ill-chosen words, to explain I hope that my interlocutor will accept that no offence was intended, and to make a mental note not to use that particular phrase or trope in future unless I actually do want to offend people -- that's basic good manners, as far as I'm concerned.

It's not difficult to discover why many people do perceive antisemitic overtones in the "bankers rule the world" trope, combining as it does the idea of an international conspiracy to rule the world, as outlined in the Tsarist forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, with the traditional association between Jews and finance.

If you're interested, you can find very illuminating discussions of its history and how and why it's thought to lead all too easily to overt antisemitism in both Antony Julius' Trials of the Diaspora: A History of Anti-Semitism in England and Deborah Lipstadt's Antisemitism here and now.

Thanks for not wanting to think the worst of me, Innula.

I appreciate and respect the general point of view that the idea of the banks running the world could be mistaken and it's worth discussing. The broader discussion of the capitalist class is definitely worth examining, but I happen to think that even there that the financialization of the industries of the real/physical economy provide more interconnectedness that would cause systemic failures. When the stock market tanks because of a downturn by one sector of an industry, e.g. semiconductors, it's not because semiconductor under-production would harm the world in lasting ways. It's because people in the financial industry's hair gets set aflame at slightest whiff of quarterly profit loss, with no regard to long term performance. This short-term view drives the way many of the companies in the physical economy works. Finance has an outsized influence on every economy, and has grown to take up a ridiculous share of GDP for not producing anything real except inequality.