Next steps for VVO

Noodles

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This is probably where I got the idea that decisions were being made on Discord instead of here. I read it while catching up on the thread, and remember thinking who “all” and “we” meant in those posts, especially since nothing had been mentioned previously about anyone having been chosen yet. Whether you were part of these discussions or not, I believe you if you say nothing was chosen from a Discord channel. I‘m going to assume now that “all“ and “we“ meant Bart, Free, and Noodles, and the discussions were only about the technical aspect of it all.
Just for "transparency".

There is a "secret mods" thread thing going here but it's much slower for a conversation than a chat engine like Discord. And it's pretty much all figuring out the technical back end stuff.

The main thing is moving away from the current host, for a variety of reasons, but it should be, essentially transparent to everyone here. Which is more of the technical part.

There has also been some discussion about other stuff Cris had there that that is frankly, not the business of the public, and at this point the details are pretty much just Joshua and Freez who are the ones who have actual access there. And what to do with that stuff. There were some things that other 3rd parties needed to be contacted about. Again, no details, I don't even know the details, that is Cris' business.

Most of it is discussion about moving the forum while to a new host for now, primarily to make sure we are free of anything associated with Cris. It helps alleviate any future drama from the past, and and potential future problems that may come from having things former associated with Cris, with his family. We can change admin emails and usernames on services, but it's generally best to just, be completely clean of it. The new system, I believe, should also reduce the cost of running the forum on a regular monthly basis, though there will be some.
 

Couldbe Yue

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As outlook for the road ahead: we can do the migration itself quite quickly now. DNS zone has prepared to propagate changes quickly for that task. Which is fancy pants words for saying the TTL on all entries is now 300 seconds, or 5 minutes. This enables a very quick transition from old IP address to new one.

Unpacking all files takes about 2 minutes, populating the empty database is about 12 minutes. I don't know how long backing up that stuff takes, but probably around the same.

Sending mails out aka SMTP delivery needs to be configured, one way or the other. On here it is using the infrastructure of the hosting provider. On the new home running a local Postfix instance for that should do that trick including properly setup SPF, DKIM and DMARC. Because without it email will never through to Outlook.com, Gmail and other biggies. And without a working mail connection nobody ever will receive notifications by it, so we do need that.

The license itself only checks the domain name it is running on. The same will most likely apply to the addons. The software itself will be totally happy and purring after the switch under the domain name virtualverse.one. Also the license itself is a lifetime license, the forum will just continue to run with 2.1.1 until eternity. So just running as is is not the problem.

There are though major problems, which we will need to address after the switch happened: lifetime license does not mean lifetime access to new versions and security updates at Xenforo. A lifetime license only grants you 12 months of feature and security updates. After that you will have to buy an extension fee, which is $60 for another 12 months.

Also several paid add-ons are in use here, some of them run on that model as well. So in order to run this in a sane and safe way this means reoccuring, yearly payments.

The problem this installation has got is that it is horribly, horribly outdated. Xenforo 2.1.1 was launched at 2019-03-12. The new host is based on Debian 13 (Trixie), which comes by default with PHP 8.4. I had to downgrade PHP to 7.3 to make Xenforo running. PHP 7.3 had its end of life at 2021-12-06. Yes, this forum is so horribly outdated it is giving me major headaches.

On the bright side I ran some malware checks on the forum files. There was no malware or other funny stuff detected, which is a small miracle but its great. I don't mind, let's keep it that way shall we.

As conclusion running just as is is no option: the forum engine itself has got almost 7 years of no security patches and PHP almost 5. Which makes all these moving parts exposed to the internet a security nightmare.

So we will definitely be busy sticking our heads together on how to improve this after the switch. The easiest way would be just to renew the licenses and then update all software components to its modern status, which most likely will mean having to buy them first. We would the definitely need to review which paid add-ons are still worth keeping, and which one are done anyway since nobody has been using its functionality in years, like e.g. Raffles (last used in 2018 for reaction buttons).

Even if we are able to jettison some add-ons nobody has been using since years the initial upfront cost will be a mid range 3 digit number.

To give you an impression on the obvious stuff anyone can see and loves:

NamePrice tag
Xenforo 2.3 new License (incl. 12 months of updates)$195
Xenforo Resource manager (heavily used here)$70
Theme House UI.X 2 Dark Theme (which everybody here loves)$59.95
XF2 Moods Add-on (lifetime license)$74.97
Discord integration add-on$30
$429.92

And that's just a fraction of the functionality installed here, but which are add-ons I am certain are crucial to the user experience. We got lots of more commercial add-ons installed here, so the potential price tag is probably much higher.

Please note: I am not disclosing these numbers here to ask for donations. I just want to highlight - for now - as a rough idea what keeping this running as is in an updated, secure and sane way would mean. To me running such a platform in the most secure way possible, which means always being on top of the most recent updates, it a top priority and nothing I am willing to compromise on.

This amount is not set in stone, nothing is decided yet. It can go up or down. But it's a good starting point to showcase what the rebuilding the functionality from scratch most do love and enjoy would cost us in the initial payment. The following years renewing licenses would be cheaper, but most likely still in the low 100s.

So overall it's not a cheap solution.

Currently our top priority is making the switch. After that though this will be for sure our next discussion as admin team on how to move on with the platform, and then you can expect more on that.
This may be a weird one as I don't know how the us works but is there some kind of third party who would be happy to give us an invoice to organise the licences etc etc and if they give a bank account/paypal/whatever then we can all chip in to pay it. I only suggest this as it solves the issue of someone having to take responsibility for the money and the potential tax liability if your tax people decide it's income.
just a thought
 

Couldbe Yue

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So ecerybody that could not be bothered for years to be around VVO (mind you talking about VVO no other sites Cris was involved with) and can start playing the first violin, as if nothing has happened and as if it is all natural?

Look at Luci, storms in and declares that Joshua can be the only admin.
Duh.
Look at Couldbe, jumps in and calls my critisism mud slinging.
If you want to see mud slinging look back at the posts from Joshua in the past.
Why do others have to pretend that it never happened and never will happen again?

It is sad to see what is happening.
But no longer my beer.
A thanks to all who did stay active here over the years. I liked your posts and stories. I hope that things will not go along the path that I for see for the future. Don't let nowadays strangers from the past (for this site), who could not care less for years and years, trample over you because they need a new toy to play with. It is your VVO, not theirs.

No need to respond on this. I will not show up any longer on VVO for a long time.
If Someone wants to contact me, I'm Harrie Belmonte in Second Life.
👋
link to where i called you mudslinging pls.
 
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Free

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It's a royal everyone, just covering all bases.
Looks more like an opportunity for you to post a meme of Toad from Super Mario, which as some kind of mushroom thing is your subtle way to make sure everyone knows you own a penis.
 
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mixvio

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Looks more like an opportunity for you to post a meme of Toad from Super Mario, which as some kind of mushroom thing is your subtle way to make sure everyone knows you own a penis.
Anyone who has stuck around from the old SC days is acutely aware that I have a penis.
 

Noodles

The sequel will probably be better.
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Tax liability is a good question, but even $429 listed there falls below the threshold. I think it's like $650 now in income.
 
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Free

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There is a "secret mods" thread thing going here but it's much slower for a conversation than a chat engine like Discord. And it's pretty much all figuring out the technical back end stuff.
In regards to tranparency, don't forget the brief moments we're ridiculing Prok.
 
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Free

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Anyone who has stuck around from the old SC days is acutely aware that I have a penis.
That would never stop you from updating everyone else.
 

Couldbe Yue

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Tay liability is a good question, but even $429 listed there falls below the threshold. I think it's like $650 now in income.
but that's only the beginning... there's going to be more costs either for licencing, hosting or if the hardware needs replacing etc etc. Never say never when you're talking IT.
 

Free

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This may be a weird one as I don't know how the us works but is there some kind of third party who would be happy to give us an invoice to organise the licences etc etc and if they give a bank account/paypal/whatever then we can all chip in to pay it. I only suggest this as it solves the issue of someone having to take responsibility for the money and the potential tax liability if your tax people decide it's income.
just a thought
For the moment, I believe I'm mostly responsible for organizing these. It fell on me simply because I offered myself up to take on management of Cris' hosting account (which also makes me the, uhm, wallet), and that ties into a lot of the other stuff. But I wouldn't mind handing things off to...I'm not sure how a third party would work here, but if it can be arranged then let's try that.
 

Casey Pelous

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First, much gratitude to Joshua, Free, Bartholomew, and Noodles for stepping up and "gettin' 'er done." Y'all are even more flat-out awesome than I thought you were before.

Now we've entered a realm I know at least a (very) little about, which is how we could structure this financially. I have no definitive recommendations, but here are some thoughts about how to proceed immediately, and what to think about for the future.

The easy way to go would be via Patreon. Patrons can be anonymous, which is surely a benefit for a substantial number of our members. They collect 10% (!) of what comes in PLUS payment processing, currency conversion, and payout fees, and applicable taxes. I have no idea what taxes would be "applicable," but they collect 'em. I'm guessing by the time they finish wringing every imaginable fee out of a donation, the $10 donation turns into an $8 donation. Maybe worse.

That's pretty steep, but it is simple --- after all, even drummers can use it :devilish: -- and includes that very important subscription mode that automatically handles recurring donations. It's a little machine that poops out money on the first of the month with no further muss of fuss. By way of comparison, I pay Amazon the printing cost of my paperback books or the "distribution cost" (per Mb) of the Kindle editions PLUS 30 or 40% of the purchase price. Sounds steep, but I never ship a book, I never have to talk to a customer about a return, and I don't have a garage full of boxes of unsold books, so it is worth it to me.

There are, of course, similar services, such as GoFundMe and KickStarter, but Patreon was specifically built for recurring patronage of "art" projects which, ya gotta admit, is pretty much what we are.

One concern I'd have with Patreon is the eventual tax liability for whomever holds the account. (That's also a concern with the simple, "Just PayPal it to me" solution.) It seems grotesquely unfair to make the fine folks who have risen up to be our admins pay taxes for the privilege! Absent a corporate entity of some sort, I think the account holder would have to be an individual.

The way around some of those problems is to form a real, grown-up corporation with its own real, grown-up bank account. I'm at least 95% sure we'd want to create an LLC, which, put very simply, limits any liability the corporation might have to its assets. Individual shareholders are shielded from personal liability. It isn't QUITE that simple, but that's the general idea. An LLC also pays no corporate taxes -- the individuals pay tax on any income they take from the corporation. (All this is assuming a US corporation and US tax law. If y'all incorporate elsewhere, all bets are off.) Obviously, this is more complicated to set up than filling out a membership form on Patreon, but since we're talking about as simple a business as there could be, it is reasonably straightforward. For instance, you can form a Washington State LLC with an online application to the Washington State Secretary of State (Start a Domestic (WA) Limited Liability Company (LLC) Online | WA Secretary of State) for $180. Add an extra $100 if you really, really, want it expedited with three-day ("usually") handling. I'd guess most states have something similar in place. Once we have the LLC papers in hand, we can open a bank account.

LLC's come with some nuisancy reporting requirements, but, again, we're super-simple, so reporting shouldn't be too awfully burdensome.

Ideally it would be a non-profit, but there are some 35 different types of non-profit and getting qualified is very much not a job for amateurs, so that possibility is way, way down the line if it exists at all.

It seems to be that in the early going here, rustling up $500 or so to move the site and update it into the 2020's (!!) is perfectly doable with the "Hey, PayPal it to me" system, which kind of automatically makes it, financially speaking, into a sole proprietorship. (PayPal can even handle recurring payments!) Whoever gets the donations will probably want to declare those and offset them with expenditures on the actual site. Once we're past the initial thrash, then we can set up a more formal arrangement.
 

Lexxi

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Can everyone please stop hating me now?????????

For those who don't notice, this is something Sid does every six months or so. He'll say he's leaving, then actually leave. A month or more later he returns. At least to posting. So, anyone thinking 'omg, I drove someone away somehow or other', this is Sid being Sid.
 

Soen Eber

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What are the cost and viability for ditching Xenforo and going pure open source? Don't put too much effort into this, I'm asking out of sheer curiosity, as I'm reasonably certain open source had already been considered and put to one side for various valid reasons.
 
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mixvio

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What are the cost and viability for ditching Xenforo and going pure open source? Don't put too much effort into this, I'm asking out of sheer curiosity, as I'm reasonably certain open source had already been considered and put to one side for various valid reasons.
There are certainly other options and platforms but they'd all require some degree of exporting content and it wouldn't be "it just works" which was the state I was trying to leave things in by getting access to Cris' site. I guess it's less of a crisis now that it can be done orderly instead of rushing because the site would have been shut down six days ago otherwise, but I was trying to keep things as they currently are for the ease of everyone else on here. But yes there are definitely other platforms that can be used instead, with varying degrees of import-support from xenforo too, I would imagine.
 

Argent Stonecutter

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Whoa, did someone do something, for a while there I was getting:

ping: cannot resolve www.virtualverse.one: Unknown host

But it's back now.
 

Monica Dream

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Look at Luci, storms in and declares that Joshua can be the only admin.
Duh.
Dude, as long as you've been around if you don't know Lucifer and the history which legitimately made him a part of this community then that is on you. And you alone.

I also have difficulty understanding what Sid is referring to. It’s almost as if he didn’t read or comprehend anything that has been posted since his first post where he admitted he was reticent about how it was being handled.
Every time Sid's raegquit I've never understood what his beef was. This time it's even more inexplicable than usual. Particularly the claim he made above -it's literally unreal, as in -it is not something that was said.