Nobody Cares: PRS

[Innula Zenovka]

No, you didn't miss anything, other than the answer to your question was answered in the article. I have never claimed the whole enchilada was based off Iroquois.

The important part was this:

I'm not familiar with the Great Law of Peace and it's not immediately apparent from Google or Wikipedia how the US constitution echoes the Great Law of Peace (in fact, Wikipedia makes it sound as if the degree of its influence is a matter of some debate amongst historians https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Law_of_Peace#)

Could you point me to some examples of its influence on the detail of the US constitution?

 

[Veritable Quandry]

I can see it as more of an influence on the Articles of Confederation, which required most actions to be based on the agreement of a majority of states. When those proved unworkable, especially the inability to cooperate to put down Shay's Rebellion, the current Constitution replaced that with a stronger central government.

 

[WolfEyes]

I'm not familiar with the Great Law of Peace and it's not immediately apparent from Google or Wikipedia how the US constitution echoes the Great Law of Peace (in fact, Wikipedia makes it sound as if the degree of its influence is a matter of some debate amongst historians https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Law_of_Peace#)

Could you point me to some examples of its influence on the detail of the US constitution?

When it comes to indigenous peoples, Wikipedia is crap.

How the Iroquois Great Law of Peace Shaped U.S. Democracy

Much has been said about the inspiration of the ancient Iroquois “Great League of Peace” in planting seeds that led to the formation of the United States…

www.pbs.org

Article I, Section 6, Clause 2, also known as the Ineligibility Clause or the Emoluments Clause
Article II, Section 4
Article I, Section 1, or the Vesting Clauses
Article I, Section 8, Clause 11, also known as the War Powers Clause

Great Law: Creates a balance of power between the Iroquois Confederacy and individual tribes

US Constitution: The differing duties assigned to the three branches of the U.S. Government: Legislative (Congress), Executive (President), and Judicial (Supreme Court) act to balance and separate power in government.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

When it comes to indigenous peoples, Wikipedia is crap.

How the Iroquois Great Law of Peace Shaped U.S. Democracy

Much has been said about the inspiration of the ancient Iroquois “Great League of Peace” in planting seeds that led to the formation of the United States…

www.pbs.org

Article I, Section 6, Clause 2, also known as the Ineligibility Clause or the Emoluments Clause
Article II, Section 4
Article I, Section 1, or the Vesting Clauses
Article I, Section 8, Clause 11, also known as the War Powers Clause

Great Law: Creates a balance of power between the Iroquois Confederacy and individual tribes

US Constitution: The differing duties assigned to the three branches of the U.S. Government: Legislative (Congress), Executive (President), and Judicial (Supreme Court) act to balance and separate power in government.

I think it would be fair to say that the US Constitution draws on multiple sources -- the Great Law of Peace, certainly, but also English Common Law, Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, on contemporary English and French constitutional theorists (notably Locke and Baron de Montesquieu) and on the authors' understanding of the Roman Republic and on classical sources like Cicero and Polybius.

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Oh dear. How terrible.

Spoiler

Oooh, fun:


MoneyWatch
UnitedHealth says Change Healthcare cyberattack cost it $872 million

Probably more related to crime than a red blooded American pulling a Shinzo Abe.

 

[Soen Eber]

I think it would be fair to say that the US Constitution draws on multiple sources -- the Great Law of Peace, certainly, but also English Common Law, Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, on contemporary English and French constitutional theorists (notably Locke and Baron de Montesquieu) and on the authors' understanding of the Roman Republic and on classical sources like Cicero and Polybius.

On the other hand, the Iroquois were a living, breathing, working example for the founders. There's a lot of history in books, but you can't ask them questions. I'd be willing to wager the Iroquois had an outsized influence just because they were something that could be interactively poked, prodded, and queried. Especially as Iceland, the only other known example of a functioning democracy, would have required several months to travel to and make the rounds of. Best to pull in a neighbor.

However, I'm pretty sure the separation of executive, legislative, and judicial powers were not a novel invention. If I remember rightly, those powers were classed and known as such at least as far back as the Ancient Greeks.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

Yeah. George Washington had "contact" with the Iroquois. He was personally opposed to many of them living and breathing. Even by conventions of the time his actions were considered excessive.

 

[Soen Eber]

Yeah. George Washington had "contact" with the Iroquois. He was personally opposed to many of them living and breathing. Even by conventions of the time his actions were considered excessive.

Well to be fair, most of them sided with the British. I probably would have too, taking everything into consideration.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

On the other hand, the Iroquois were a living, breathing, working example for the founders. There's a lot of history in books, but you can't ask them questions. I'd be willing to wager the Iroquois had an outsized influence just because they were something that could be interactively poked, prodded, and queried. Especially as Iceland, the only other known example of a functioning democracy, would have required several months to travel to and make the rounds of. Best to pull in a neighbor.

However, I'm pretty sure the separation of executive, legislative, and judicial powers were not a novel invention. If I remember rightly, those powers were classed and known as such at least as far back as the Ancient Greeks.

Yes, but what aspects of the US Constitution do you say are clearly derived from Iroquois or other native American practice rather than common to (e.g.) Iroquois and English constitutional law? Wolfeyes linked to an article that suggested the emoluments rule and the practice of impeachment have parallels in the Great Law of Peace, but since they also have parallels in English constitutional arrangements of the time I don't see how anyone can say they came from one source or the other, or whether people simply thought "both the Iroquois and the English think that's a good idea, and so do we."

 

[WolfEyes]

Keep in mind that at the time, the founding fathers did NOT want to emulate British/English government. They were striving for something "better".

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Oh dear. How terrible.

Spoiler

Oooh, fun:

MoneyWatch
UnitedHealth says Change Healthcare cyberattack cost it $872 million

Probably more related to crime than a red blooded American pulling a Shinzo Abe.

Guise, this is financial innovation you’re missing! Line goes up by reducing payroll by CEO whacking!

 

[WolfEyes]

They'll just give his million(s) dollar bonuses to the next CEO.

 

[Khamon]

Oh dear. How terrible.

Spoiler

Oooh, fun:

MoneyWatch
UnitedHealth says Change Healthcare cyberattack cost it $872 million

Probably more related to crime than a red blooded American pulling a Shinzo Abe.

I'm seeing posts in this vein floating nonchalantly around the Intrawebz:

Eleanor Saitta (@dymaxion@infosec.exchange)

If I were a CEO, I'd simply ensure my business didn't kill so many people it inspired assassins.

infosec.exchange

BrianKrebs (@briankrebs@infosec.exchange)

Wow, the comments here somewhat mirror those on Youtube videos about the shooting (e.g "good!" "hero!" "give that person a reward!" etc). It's a safe bet that other CEOs (and potentially other would-be "heroes") are taking note.

infosec.exchange

 

[Veritable Quandry]

Keep in mind that at the time, the founding fathers did NOT want to emulate British/English government. They were striving for something "better".

If you read the debates around the Articles of Confederacy and the Constitution, as well as the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, they were full of touchpoints to both British law AND to the colonial assemblies created under British law. They were striving for reform based on English law (which was the legal tradition they grew up in) and Enlightenment philosophy and included examples from British, Greek, and Roman history as well as their experience with the Iroquois. But much of what they took for the Articles of Confederation were discarded when they wrote the Constitution. The federal government gained considerable power at the expense of the states.

 

[Free]

Looks like political shenanigans going on in France now. Far left and far right parties united to oust PM Barnier. Some appear to be demanding Macron step down.

French PM Michel Barnier ousted in no-confidence vote

Left and far-right parties unite to topple the government after the PM pushed through a budget without parliamentary support.

www.bbc.com

 

[Free]

Hmm...

UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in Midtown: NYPD

The CEO of UnitedHealthcare was killed in a targeted shooting in Midtown Wednesday morning, police said.

Brian Thompson, 50, was shot in the back and leg by a masked gunman just before 7 a.m. in front of a Hilton hotel on 54th Street between 6th and 7th Avenues, according to officials. He was rushed to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

 

[Veritable Quandry]

I certainly hope he wasn't denied lifesaving medical care after he was shot.

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Neat, Free has me on ignore.

Guess which company took down their leadership and board of directors profile pages. Hint: not Cigna.

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

zach (@extrafabulous.bsky.social)

sitting in a waiting room this morning while my partner had a 6 hour long cancer removal surgery when I saw the news that the insurance CEO was shot. Im paying out of pocket because the best alternative for us is partial coverage @ 1000 a month with a 15000 deductible. Anyway heres a unrelated comic

bsky.app

 

[Ellie]

I'm not at all surprised by news this CEO was targeted and murdered, since these companies have denied life-saving treatment to possibly millions of Americans, and many of those who have lost friends and family to their penny-pinching schemes must hold serious grudges.

NOT advocating for this solution, or the use of violence. That's more the style of those who claim to be "Pro-Life" while severely harassing and even murdering staff and doctors working at reproductive health clinics.