WTF Climate Change News

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
24,428
SLU Posts
18459
Wow, now I am feeling more positive towards the near future... NOT.

To make it clear: capitalism will NOT safe the planet, and will NOT mitigate or even battle climate change. Capitalism is the root cause for it. In order to turn climate change around we will need a fundamentally different economic system.
With what do you propose to replace capitalism -- that is, the current method of financing operations by creating government debt and moving it around the world economic system -- as a method of turning round climate change and what's your timescale?

I mean, decommissioning coal fired power stations and building ones using renewables isn't cheap -- where does the money come from if not from a mixture of banks, shareholders and bond holders (i.e. government debt)?
 

Beebo Brink

Climate Apocalypse Alarmist
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
7,256
SL Rez
2006
To make it clear: capitalism will NOT safe the planet, and will NOT mitigate or even battle climate change. Capitalism is the root cause for it. In order to turn climate change around we will need a fundamentally different economic system.
In the U.S. at least, capitalism is so firmly rooted in our culture and politics that voluntary change to a different system is just not going to happen. All the levers of power are wielded by corporations and the 1%, and they will throw everything they've got to protect what has served them so well up until now, peons be damned.

Climate change will turn that around. It will burn the old system to the ground (figuratively if not actually literally). I've no idea what will replace it, because we're in uncharted territory even now. But it won't be pretty.
 

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
24,428
SLU Posts
18459
In the U.S. at least, capitalism is so firmly rooted in our culture and politics that voluntary change to a different system is just not going to happen. All the levers of power are wielded by corporations and the 1%, and they will throw everything they've got to protect what has served them so well up until now, peons be damned.

Climate change will turn that around. It will burn the old system to the ground (figuratively if not actually literally). I've no idea what will replace it, because we're in uncharted territory even now. But it won't be pretty.
I'd say that capitalism -- banks creating and trading in debt and credit -- is the environment in which all the advanced and developing economies have no choice but to operate.

How else do you build things or pay anyone? How else do you run a supply chain?
 

Beebo Brink

Climate Apocalypse Alarmist
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
7,256
SL Rez
2006
I'd say that capitalism -- banks creating and trading in debt and credit -- is the environment in which all the advanced and developing economies have no choice but to operate.

How else do you build things or pay anyone? How else do you run a supply chain?
You don't.

At some point this will all collapse.
 
  • 1Agree
Reactions: Archer

Clara D.

Coffee Squirrel is judging you.
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
3,540
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
Back in the day.
SLU Posts
0
I expect housing shortages and even more insane rent here in MERIKA as people move away from affected areas. Then throw in various shortages on top of already run-away inflation

Water situation here could get interesting, we're slowly sucking the Colorado River dry with really fuck-all being done about it. And of course, this is a popular place for people to move to...

Like the proverbial curse: "May you live in interesting times." And they're only going to get more interesting.
 
  • 1Hug
Reactions: Aribeth Zelin

Beebo Brink

Climate Apocalypse Alarmist
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
7,256
SL Rez
2006
And sooner rather than later if we decide we can't do anything to ameliorate the climate crisis until after the revolution and we've overthrown capitalism.
I'm afraid I don't grasp your point. And have I somehow given the impression that I expect a revolution of some kind? Or that it's a required precursor to action against climate change?

I intended quite the opposite, so perhaps I should clarify. I don't anticipate any significant pushback against capitalism while our civilization still stands. As you pointed out, it works quite well within our current framework. But it's reliant on an infrastructure that is largely digital these days, and its reliant on a society that functions and shares common behaviors.

On our current course of inaction concerning climate change, we may well end up with 3-4 degrees change in global temperature. If that is the case, we're headed for End Times level chaos, and I'd be surprised if our economic systems can function under those conditions. We may be knocked back to the barter system instead, along with an upsurge in slavery or serfdom in exchange for protection. There may be coins or some form of money knocking about in there, but simply handing someone a gold disc in exchange for some grains of rice isn't "capitalism" in its current sense.

When I used the phrase "it will all collapse" I wasn't speaking about just capitalism. I was speaking about civilization as we know it; capitalism will just be one of the side casualties.
 
  • 2Agree
Reactions: Archer and Clara D.

Clara D.

Coffee Squirrel is judging you.
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
3,540
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
Back in the day.
SLU Posts
0
When I used the phrase "it will all collapse" I wasn't speaking about just capitalism. I was speaking about civilization as we know it; capitalism will just be one of the side casualties.
I see stuff like food/water riots and the like sometime in the future.

Gonna suck, I'll be even older and more decrepit than I already am.
 
  • 1Hug
Reactions: Aribeth Zelin

Clara D.

Coffee Squirrel is judging you.
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
3,540
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
Back in the day.
SLU Posts
0
And sooner rather than later if we decide we can't do anything to ameliorate the climate crisis until after the revolution and we've overthrown capitalism.
That's a bit back to front, there.

Climate change -> Chaos -> Capitalism (outside of local barter systems) go blooey.
 
  • 1Agree
Reactions: Beebo Brink

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
24,428
SLU Posts
18459
I'm afraid I don't grasp your point. And have I somehow given the impression that I expect a revolution of some kind? Or that it's a required precursor to action against climate change?

I intended quite the opposite, so perhaps I should clarify. I don't anticipate any significant pushback against capitalism while our civilization still stands. As you pointed out, it works quite well within our current framework. But it's reliant on an infrastructure that is largely digital these days, and its reliant on a society that functions and shares common behaviors.

On our current course of inaction concerning climate change, we may well end up with 3-4 degrees change in global temperature. If that is the case, we're headed for End Times level chaos, and I'd be surprised if our economic systems can function under those conditions. We may be knocked back to the barter system instead, along with an upsurge in slavery or serfdom in exchange for protection. There may be coins or some form of money knocking about in there, but simply handing someone a gold disc in exchange for some grains of rice isn't "capitalism" in its current sense.

When I used the phrase "it will all collapse" I wasn't speaking about just capitalism. I was speaking about civilization as we know it; capitalism will just be one of the side casualties.
No, I wasn't directing my point at you -- rather, I was using your point to amplify mine, that capitalism is pretty much a given and we have to work within it rather than, as some people -- not you, obviously -- seem to want to do, and wait for a revolution that's not coming any time soon.

I'm actually quite impressed at what the most of the main central banks have been doing about the climate crisis since they're very concerned about the amount of debt that's secured against increasingly toxic assets, and have for several years been taking measures to ensure that environmental risks and liabilities are properly taken into account in stress testing and lending decisions.

It's all very well businesses trying to ignore environmental hazards, and potential liabilities like clean up costs, but on this side of the Atlantic their bankers and insurers are making that more and more painful to do, because they don't want their savers and investors to get stuck with the eventual bill.
 

danielravennest

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
3,708
SLU Posts
9073
No, I wasn't directing my point at you -- rather, I was using your point to amplify mine, that capitalism is pretty much a given and we have to work within it rather than, as some people -- not you, obviously -- seem to want to do, and wait for a revolution that's not coming any time soon.
Capitalism is what will save us. For example, as of this April, California had 79 GW of utility power of all types. But there is currently 245 GW of renewables and storage in the "connection queue" of CAISO, the operator of the state's grid. Why so much? The profit motive, like most everything in a capitalist system.

A power plant or battery farm is not much use if you can't deliver the power to customers. So the first thing you do when you are even thinking about building them is get on the list of people wanting to connect to the grid. That's what the connection queue is, people requesting a place in line to hook up to the power lines. This informs the grid operator when they will need to upgrade, and where. The other side of this is local utilities and how much they are pulling off the grid to serve their customers.

So not all the projects in the queue will get built. Some will duplicate other projects that will get built first, others won't secure financing, etc. The point is that there is three times as much in the queue as the existing total, and that total is already 40% renewable. The queue is 5.5 times as large as everything that isn't already renewable. So even if only a fraction is built, the state will eliminate carbon emissions for electric power.

This is happening because solar and batteries are now the cheapest source of power, at least in sunny California. As goes California, so will the rest of the world, over time. Places that are not so sunny will take longer, or use wind instead. That's why I don't think civilization will collapse. Capitalists will keep doing what they do, and now that renewables are cheap, they will try to profit off them.
 

Archer

Not a Robot
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
710
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
2007
Scientists Unable to Predict Catastrophes
(Changed the title to more accurately reflect blame)

Top climate scientists have admitted they failed to predict the intensity of the German floods and the North American heat dome.
They've correctly warned over decades that a fast-warming climate would bring worse bursts of rain and more damaging heatwaves.
But they say their computers are not powerful enough to accurately project the severity of those extremes.
 
  • 1Scared
Reactions: Govi

Bartholomew Gallacher

Administrator
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
7,089
SL Rez
2002
Capitalism is what will save us. For example, as of this April, California had 79 GW of utility power of all types. But there is currently 245 GW of renewables and storage in the "connection queue" of CAISO, the operator of the state's grid. Why so much? The profit motive, like most everything in a capitalist system.
Are we talking here about the same capitalism which also brought the wonderful joy of fracking sideeffects to America at large? Where investors are getting greedy eyes due to global warming and being suddenly able to look for oil and other stuff in areas like Arctica, Greenland and so on where it before was impossible? The economic system which is doomed to eternal growth, and therefore does not really care about only having a planet with limited resources despite its devastating effects? Where water suddenly became an item being traded on CME? The system which depends on cheap energy like a junkie needs his drugs, and didn't care about polluting the environment at all for decades despite knowing better?

And most disturbingly where many of the winners of that system, the rich and super rich which should know it by far the best, are since years silently preparing for the collapse of whole countries, creating their own little safe havens somewhere remotely on the globe, getting laser surgery, train themselves archery and firearm usage, how to hunt food and so on? And most important on how to keep your own little group of minions from rebelling against your reign?

Ha, ha and ha, good joke! I am by far more convinced it will lead us to a future which resembles more Soylent Green than anything we have today. That's not "saving us", but just barely living for the vast majority then.
 
Last edited: