Covenant Dispute

[Kimba]

Hello everyone. I am a long term tenant of W Real Estate and have now work for them off and on for two years. I can confirm exactly what was said to the tenant, without the need for Breaking TOS and pasting chat logs. She has the word 'Club' and 'Clubhouse' on her small parcel which was on a residential only region. The friendly request sent to her was to ask her to remove the word 'Club' from the name of her parcel, and to lift anything that was club related. Ie Dance poles. There was no mention of a flag pole. The response of 'Can I call it Fuck off and die' was nothing but immature and petty, and regardless of what was said, an insult to myself who was simply doing the job I am requested to do.
If someone cannot be bothered to read a covenant in full before purchasing, or cannot be bothered to stick to the rules of that covenant, the fault is theirs in its entirety. No amount of passing the blame back to the Estate owner is going to fix the problem. The best solution for all here is to admit you were wrong and let it be. But I won't stand for a reputable company like W Real Estate or its staff being slandered for one persons stupid mistake.

See how they lie? First the girl said she was the agent, and she took it as an insult. Now he comes on and says he was the agent. I will verify that this guy was the actual agent. Zel did say to remove anything club-related, but he did not say what he referred to. Set aside the fact that people have dance-poles in their houses, for exercise, as well as to entertain themselves and intimate-friends - it was Katya who referred to the flagpole, when we spoke later.

As I just said, in a previous reply, I was not angry at Zel, but was angry at the complaining-neighbor, and intended the fuck/die comment at her.

But the main point, that I have been making from the start, is that I read the covenant, and knew what it said, and wanted to live on a residential island. The covenant only refers to USE OF THE LAND, NOT THE NAME OF THE LAND. The covenant does NOT empower WRE or their agents to dictate how the land can be named, only how it is actually used. This is like Zel had said, "This land is residential only, you can't have a pink-house." That is a non-sequitur. They don't relate.

Zel could have said, "Are you telling me to fuck-off and die," and I would have apologized that he took it that way, and explained it. Katya could have asked me what I meant. But no, since they have no customer-service demeanor, because they can just kick-people and keep their money - they don't have to. That is the problem.

And I want to repeat that I then did change the name of the land, and thought that the issue was settled, until I found myself standing at an infohub.

 

[Sid]

If someone cannot be bothered to read a covenant in full before purchasing, or cannot be bothered to stick to the rules of that covenant, the fault is theirs in its entirety.

This, exactly this.

 

[Aki]

I am not missing anything. I agree with you that it is not a good thing to tell somebody to tell fuck off and die. But let's use your own example of the cop, to better understand this. Suppose that I am pulled over by a cop who is standing at my driver's-side window. A Neo-Nazi in full regalia walks down the sidewalk, and I yell at him, through the passenger-side window, to fuck off and die, and the cop thinks I am talking to him.

Which doesn't change the situation at all, and is a pretty privileged position to take, considering what some cops have done for much less. You admit it was wrong. I don't care if you intended it for your neighbour or your EM - it's a shitty thing to do either way.

I inferred that a neighbor had complained. Probably the one who I made stop her birdsongs from leaking onto my land, and who had complained that I was running around the border naked.

You folks both *know* there are parcel control settings for both of these issues, right? Being petty about either of these things is pretty unnecessary.

All I am saying is that people who actually know me would probably agree that fuck-die was directed at the complaining-neighbor, not the real-estate agent.

No one who doesn't know you cares what people know you would think.

 

[Kimba]

Aki - It's a growing "thing" in SL to treat & talk to folks in ways they wouldn't do it in "Real Life". It's because of the "anonymity" of the avatar I think - the human typist behind one forgets there's a human behind the other. 6 years or so ago I would have said it's typical "teen" behaviour but sadly it seems to be becoming more of an adult thing too

This is not a growing-thing, this has been the case with online-communication since the first caveman sent the first email. And it goes both-ways: WRE people do not have to look me in the face, so they can be as mean as they want, because they do not see me as a fellow human-being. The same can be said of the complaining neighbor. She could have sent me a message inquiring if I was running or intending to run a club there, but because she is anonymous and faceless, she can just be a flaming-bitch about it, and rag WRE.

 

[Kimba]

My quotes below are a collection of sentances from your few posts that touch on various themes, so please endure how they jump around Kimba. I am going to be quite a bit critical of you.

You cannot define how a question is perceived: How you say it in your head can be vastly different than how you intended it to come out. Given how you're already offended by the request of the estate management and quite literally on the attack in defending your build, how you presented what you said is easily perceived as abusive. I'm not alone in saying this, most people in this thread agree. When I asked you what clause you broke, I was hoping for a shitty estate doing shitty things. Instead you admit to dishing out a petty hypothetical question because you weren't getting your way.

First of all, I want to thank you for your thoughtful analysis, which helps us all understand the situation better. As I have said numerous times, there was no hypothetical question. I would have immediately renamed the land to that, except Zel said no I couldn't. And there was no violation of the actual terms of the actual covenant as actually written. Let's look at this like a Supreme Court judge, what do the actual words actually say. The actual literal-wording of the covenant does NOT say anything about what one can name one's land. The actual literal wording of my question was a question. You cannot infer what you think the covenant meant to say, and you cannot infer what I may have meant the question to mean. You must use the literal wording of what is actually written in the covenant, and the literal wording of what I actually said.

"Anybody who knows me ......." is NOT a valid excuse for your behavior. As you've said, we don't know you. The only thing we know is how you present your interactions here and with other people. You cannot EXCPECT to treat everyone as your close friends who "know you". Everyone has a base line on interacting with strangers. Early interactions is what makes you a good person, or an asshole in their eyes. And for a lot of readers here, you're heading towards the latter.

I agree with you, on this thread, I am being both an asshole and a bully, as a strategy against people bullying me and being assholes. I do not care what you or anyone else on this board thinks of my temperament and character. My purpose is solely to use whatever tools are available to cost WRE money, through lost business. As such, the very existence of this thread serves my purpose, no matter how it plays.

You bring up this question a lot. It worries me because it makes me think that you're a little paranoid, and generally don't trust people. Nobody is trying to read your mind, because no one can. And so it touches back on how no one can define how a question is perceived. It seems to me that a reoccurring problem is that no one quite understands you, outside of those who "know you". I think instead of making excuses, it would be far more helpful to rephrase what you meant when people let you know that what you said is offensive, rude, or abusive.

When dealing with anything important in Second Life such as content creation or customer service, you need to treat them as if you would in real life. There's no point in hiding behind a Second Life persona, because the people providing products or services in any significant capacity -- are treating it like Real Life because that's what it is for them. We really don't have time for that sort of interaction, and the BS detector is typically very sensitive for anyone who has been in SL a long time. And if you're not hiding behind a persona, you genuinely need to take a step back and try to see things from other peoples perspectives.

What makes you think that this is any different from how I operate in real-time? If anything, I am more polite in SL. In real-time, if you get adversarial with me, I am going to be adversarial right back atcha, in spades. I am well known in my community for doing exactly that, and I have staged one-woman protests for the sole purpose of costing an offending establishment money, many times. At the poker-table, I am the same way. If you raise my bet, there is a good-chance I will re-raise or push all-in. I respond to aggression with accelerated-aggression.

 

[Kimba]

I'm going to stop you right there, because you're not an activist. Claiming to be an activist, trying to rally people behind your cause, and standing up for something where you were in the wrong is mob mentality, not activism. The change you're asking for is not within your rights to assert. Before I asked my question about what clause you broke, you were already well on your way to trying to stir things up against them. Here's a rundown of the situation as compiled by all sides thus far:

1. You wanted to have a build that was club-like, even though you've chosen land on a residential estate where clubs aren't allowed.
2. Estate management or it's residents saw that you had a club, and asked you to make changes.
3. Instead of complying with the EM and the covenant you agreed to, you presented the hypothetical of "What if I changed my land name to Fuck Off and Die?" (This is where you fucked up)
4. You got your shit returned, and you got estate banned.
5. You came to this forum to make your complaints heard, and told people to buy their MP listing and leave bad reviews.
6. The folks here at this forum are generally smart, and don't really buy into these types of complaints; so we ask questions.
7. You then tell us exactly how you did some questionable things as a tenant.
8. We call you out on it, the estate manager shows up, you get hyper defensive.
9. Suddently you're an "EsTaTe JuStIcE wArRiOr".
10. Flounce.

1. I wanted to have a house that had a style similar to that of a clubhouse, not a club, for the sake of nostalgia. That is my right.
2. There was no club, and no traffic. It didn't even look like a club. It did look something like a clubhouse. It simply was named with the words club and clubhouse, which is not a violation of the covenant, as written.
3. Nothing was hypothetical. I did not say what if, I said can I, with every intention of doing so.
4. My stuff was not all returned, and that was vindictive on the part of WRE. They surely know that when they mass-return stuff, some no-copy objects can be lost, and I did lose an irreplaceable no-copy object.
5. I did not tell anybody to do anything. I merely stated what I was going to do, and posted the link to show that I was doing it.
6. The people here are really smart, and really argumentative. So I knew that when Katya said, "Go ahead, attack me on social-media, it don't do you any good, clearly, she did not know how this would play, but I did. Very few people will read this thread, but y'all will keep pushing the thread to the tip for probably two-weeks, turning it into an epic-thread with thousands of reads and scores of replies. As new people find their way to their forum, what is going to register with them is "Weezles Real-Estate scam" and some people will rent elsewhere.

In my eyes, and probably a lot of other readers here: You're the bully.

I am not arguing with you, I am agreeing with you. I am acting like a bully. I am bullying the bullies back, but bigger and better. That's how I operate, in real-time and in SL. And a lot of people have messed with me once, learned their lesson, and never did it again. Don't mess with Kimba, she has sharp edges.

I 100% assure you that estate management talks with each other. There's no point in telling lies to each other, because that's counter-intuitive to the business. I personally keep a spreadsheet of significant negative incidents to help me remember things that happened years ago. Fortunately, it only has about 3 new entries in the past 2 years. Shit is pretty mellow in my junk heap.


Abuse is abuse even if you think being rude isn't. Harking back again to how you don't get to define how a question is perceived: the opinion that matters most on how things are perceived, is the one who holds the keys to the estate. I've done my fair share of 1st life and 2nd life customer service all my life. Good customer service goes both ways. You can't BE a shitty customer and still feel ENTITLED to good customer service. In that same vein a business knows when they're in the wrong and will work to correct it. That concept generally goes both ways. If a customer is wrong they tend to apologize for the misunderstanding, and you know sometimes they get more help out of it.

One can only apologize for creating a misunderstanding, if one gets the opportunity to do so. But part of what motivated my response was that nobody at WRE gave me that chance.

But, based on your interactions here, I feel like -- right now -- you're the type of person who has problems admitting that you're wrong. You don't have to be sorry, or feel bad about being wrong. I think it's something you could work on in addition to your communication skills. I myself had made pretty big mistakes in the past, but I work to learn from them and try to make things better for those impacted. No one expects you to change overnight, but take some time to reflect about this thread instead of being angry about the situation. What could you have done differently to avoid this entire situation?

I don't start a fight, unless I am certain that I am right. So I rarely admit that I was wrong. And I wasn't wrong in this case. Diplomacy has been defined as "an iron-fist in a velvet-glove". Sometimes you show the glove, sometimes you show the fist.

 

[Kimba]

This, exactly this.

I did read the covenant, and did not break the covenant.

 

[Kimba]

Which doesn't change the situation at all, and is a pretty privileged position to take, considering what some cops have done for much less. You admit it was wrong. I don't care if you intended it for your neighbour or your EM - it's a shitty thing to do either way.


You folks both *know* there are parcel control settings for both of these issues, right? Being petty about either of these things is pretty unnecessary.


No one who doesn't know you cares what people know you would think.

I think it would depend on what the cop thinks of Neo-Nazis how he would take it. Yes, I know these things, but the neighbor did not know how to do it, and did not want to bother, and had to persuaded to do so. Your position is fundamentally anti-factual. Only the people who know me are actually qualified to make judgments on what I meant or intended to mean, when I asked, "Can I name it Fuck-Off & Die." Everybody who continues to say that I broke the covenant, or didn't read the covenant, is using Trumpian alternative-facts.

 

[Free]

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Need toaster reaction.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

Trying to decide if I want to see if keto popcorn is a thing, or add someone to ignore.

 

[Soen Eber]

Oh look! Five posts in a row!

 

[NeoBokrug Elytis]

Let's look at this like a Supreme Court judge...

...of their estate, because that's ALL that matters. Their venue, their rules. Freedom of speech isn't even guaranteed because it's still a private venue. Implied or not, asking the estate manager if you can change the land name to "fuck off and die" is abuse; not an expression of free speech, or even activism.

Only the people who know me are actually qualified to make judgments on what I meant or intended to mean...

You keep saying that. Fuck you and the bullshit word acrobatics you rode in upon. Oh, sorry, I meant to say -- That's not how language works. What you say to other people will be taken as you say it. You do not get to define how they should perceive it based on how other people know you.

I can't help but think poorly of you because of the nazi and Trump comparisons you keep making. They're completely irrelevant and meant to irritate people. If you're going to act like a troll, you'll get treated like a troll.

 

[Cristiano]

This is why we cannot have nice things.

 

[Monica Dream]

tldr; antagonizing the people who are running the estate you're on rarely pays off -regardless of your motive.

If shit's so bad, abandon and move on. It's not like you're wanting for options ...

 

[Monica Dream]

You keep saying that. Fuck you and the bullshit word acrobatics you rode in upon. Oh, sorry, I meant to say -- That's not how language works. What you say to other people will be taken as you say it. You do not get to define how they should perceive it based on how other people know you.

I can't help but think poorly of you because of the nazi and Trump comparisons you keep making. They're completely irrelevant and meant to irritate people. If you're going to act like a troll, you'll get treated like a troll.

Yeah, pretty much this.

 

[Sid]

To me, someone is 1-7 behind already in this thread.

 

[OrinB]

omg is she still banging on over losing the price of a few cups of coffee on someone else's land???

Determined to be undeterred by losing SL terra firma!

 

[Govi]

Oh dear.

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

Oh dear.

Best post in the thread so far.