The Israeli Goverment Has Become The Monster

Innula Zenovka

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I think the core of our disagreement is just that you are looking at this from the perspective of the law, which is arguably owned by the court. Meanwhile, many of us look at this as a moral thing, which isn't actually owned by any particular entity.

I understand your perspective, but maybe am less willing to agree that the ICC or other such entities have full ownership of the term. In any case, I can see the argument for saying that the slaughter is just a different set of still very grisly crimes that arguably are just as bad.
My position is that Israel is guilty of a wide range of specific war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza and the West Bank, for which there's a very strong case indeed, rather than that it's guilty of genocide, which opens the door to all sorts of definitional arguments that I'd prefer to avoid because they divert attention from the strong cases that can easily be made.
 
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Ellie

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Introducing the term gencocide gives mass-murder apologists an easy out, as seen in many media interviews.

Any still supporting this monstrous regime are complicit in their crimes, as its becoming harder and harder to claim ignorance with all the media coverage available today. Such as the hand phone recording of the Tel al-Sultan, Gaza, IDF massacre of Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), Palestine Civil Defense and United Nations workers on 23 March 2025.

The perpetrators weren't more careful because they're stupid, but because they don't have to be. Chilling.

Two useful recources covering this & many other Israeli govt. atrocities.

What Audio Analysis Reveals About Aid Workers Killed in Gaza - bellingcat

Forensic Architecture
 

Innula Zenovka

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Introducing the term gencocide gives mass-murder apologists an easy out, as seen in many media interviews.

Any still supporting this monstrous regime are complicit in their crimes, as its becoming harder and harder to claim ignorance with all the media coverage available today. Such as the hand phone recording of the Tel al-Sultan, Gaza, IDF massacre of Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), Palestine Civil Defense and United Nations workers on 23 March 2025.

The perpetrators weren't more careful because they're stupid, but because they don't have to be. Chilling.

Two useful recources covering this & many other Israeli govt. atrocities.

What Audio Analysis Reveals About Aid Workers Killed in Gaza - bellingcat

Forensic Architecture
Exactly.

Genocide isn't simply “a particularly egregious crime against humanity.” It has a different structure, most importantly that the prosecution must prove specific intent.

A campaign of deliberate starvation, indiscriminate killing, persecution, forcible displacement and systematic attacks on civilians can constitute numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity without necessarily being genocide. That does not make it appreciably less horrifying.
 

Ellie

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Exactly.

Genocide isn't simply “a particularly egregious crime against humanity.” It has a different structure, most importantly that the prosecution must prove specific intent.
Definitely avoid using the term genocide with Israeli govt. supporters who’ll whine that's "factually incorrect" in an attempt to shut down debate, and with some grounds if referring to very restrictive rules used to define the term.


UN still generally defines genocide as "proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." Proven is doing the heavy work here. We all know many serious crimes, such as rape, are very hard to prove in a court of law.

And should Israel and/or Bibi be convicted, what then?

As Audioslave once asked, “The question is not when he's gonna stop but who is gonna stop him?”

Meanwhile, the world is increasingly convicting Israel of genocide in the court of public opinion.

Bibi knows the importance of winning the socmed war he's throwing millions at, and may well be losing, hampered by IDF soldiers never expecting to be prosecuted for crimes committed on camera and posted to their accounts. And they may well be right about that.

If a solution to these atrocities exists, it must start with harsh economic sanctions against Israel, followed by removal of Bibi and all his cronies from power, as well as mass re-education of the country’s massively brainwashed citizens.
 

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It's kinda like catching a murderer in the middle of the act, knife in hand, blood on their hands, still stabbing the victim.

...and then someone says "Oh, you can't call them a murderer! Have you checked the victim's pulse? They might just be crippled. And the suspect hasn't been tried yet, so calling them a murderer would be unfair! It might just be aggrevated assault."

Meanwhile, the stabbing continues.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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It's kinda like catching a murderer in the middle of the act, knife in hand, blood on their hands, still stabbing the victim.

...and then someone says "Oh, you can't call them a murderer! Have you checked the victim's pulse? They might just be crippled. And the suspect hasn't been tried yet, so calling them a murderer would be unfair! It might just be aggrevated assault."

Meanwhile, the stabbing continues.
I'm not sure that analogy works.

If the victim survives the attack, then depending on what the court makes of the defendant's intentions, It might (in English law, anyway) be attempted murder, or grievous bodily harm with intent, but it can't possibly be murder.

Even if the victim does die, then again depending on the defendant's state of mind at the time, he may be guilty of murder, or of the lesser crime of manslaughter.

Or, because of some mental abnormality at the time of the attack, he may have been incapable of forming any sort of criminal intent, and thus not guilty of anything, in which case it becomes a mental health issue.

In reality, though, surely any reasonable person would be concerned with stopping the attack and calling an ambulance, rather than worrying about what the appropriate charge might be? The charges can come later.
 

Argent Stonecutter

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In reality, though, surely any reasonable person would be concerned with stopping the attack and calling an ambulance, rather than worrying about what the appropriate charge might be? The charges can come later.
That's the actual point of the analogy.
 

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(Kleenex warning)

American Doctor is a 2026 documentary film directed by Poh Si Teng. It follows three American physicians—Palestinian emergency physician Dr. Thaer Ahmad, Jewish orthopedic surgeon Dr. Mark Perlmutter, and Zoroastrian trauma surgeon Dr. Feroze Sidhwa—as they volunteer on medical missions in Gaza and later advocate for change back in the United States.
 

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Gadi Eisenknot will try to become Netanyahu's successor in October this year. Eisenknot is quite popular in Israel, and his Yashar party is also leading in recent polls before Netanyahu's party

Eisenknot is Israel's former military chief, and also was part of Netanyahu's administration for a while. He's also often portrayed as Anti Bibi in the press.

The Guardian however is not convinced about that, and thinks that Eisenknot is just more of the same old story in a new dress: he's against a Palestinian state in the occupied Palestinian territories, he's pro illegal settlements in the West Bank, he wants to continue Israel's apartheid regime, he's author of the military "Dahiya Doctrine" and was in the first 8 months after October 2023 part of Netanyahzu's government.


 

Ellie

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Ellie

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Innula Zenovka

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UK accuses Israeli ‘terrorists’ of ethnic cleansing in West Bank with government backing


Settler terrorists supported by Benjamin Netanyahu’s government are committing ethnic cleansing in the West Bank, Ed Miliband has said, in the UK’s starkest condemnation since the foundation of the Israeli state.

Andy Burnham, the prime minister, said he would “not stand by” as horrific suffering continued, writing in the Guardian that for too long the UK had been hesitant to act, “fearful of being accused of being anti-Israel”.
In the Commons, the foreign secretary said the government would now take the official position that Israel’s occupation of the West Bank was unlawful in its entirety, as he announced sweeping sanctions on trade with Israeli settlements.

The dramatic shift in the UK’s position comes after a summer of intense diplomacy against a backdrop of increasing settler violence in the West Bank, which has resulted in 12 nations – including France and Canada – announcing they would impose sanctions.
 

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Haaretz has a scoop today: according to their investigations at Netanyahu was called by UAE's president bin Zayed a week and a half before 7th of October 2023 with a harsh warning for about 45 minutes.

n that conversation, bin Zayed warned that Hamas' leader in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar, was planning a major operation against Israel. Bin Zayed expressed concern that the event in question would not only lead to bloodshed but also destabilize the entire region and undermine the Abraham Accords.
Three foreign senior sources are familiar with the contents of the conversation, the existence of which is revealed here for the first time. Its disclosure is the result of extensive research based on dozens of sources in Israel and worldwide, including very senior officials, as well as recordings, internal documents and correspondence. The research was conducted for the new book "Hostages: 843 Days of Abandonment" (Kinneret Zmora Publishing, in Hebrew) by the authors of this article.

"The emir explained that, in his assessment, Sinwar was preparing for a major event," the adviser says. "He told Netanyahu that Israel should be ready. Concurrently, he recommended trying to find an economic solution for the Strip and calming the West Bank to prevent escalation."
Bin Zayed urged Netanyahu to take the situation seriously. To his surprise, however, the prime minister reacted with relative calm. Netanyahu said that, in his assessment, Hamas intended to operate in the West Bank area, and he reassured bin Zayed that Israel was prepared for any scenario.

The Emirati ruler would later recount the conversation he had with Netanyahu and the warning he also relayed to CIA Director William J. Burns. Bin Zayed shared with Burns the sense he tried to convey to Netanyahu that "something there is about to explode," and told him that the Israeli prime minister believed the volatile area was, in fact, the West Bank.

"The emir hoped that despite his reserved response, Netanyahu would take the message seriously and take action," the adviser says. None of them imagined that the prime minister would hear the message but wouldn't brief the heads of the defense establishment. The head of the Shin Bet, the head of the Mossad, the Israel Defense Forces chief of staff – none of them knew about bin Zayed's warning.

Then Netanyahu did - nothing. He informed nobody about it. The rest is history.

However Netanyahu stated today that this report is all just lies, and he will sue Haaretz for defamation.

 

Innula Zenovka

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Senior UK rabbis come out in support of sanctions on Israeli settlements

The intervention comes after the UK’s chief rabbi, the spiritual leader of mainstream Orthodox Jews in the UK, Sir Ephraim Mirvis, described UK sanctions against illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories as a “dark day for British Jews” and warned they could embolden people who “use hatred as a weapon against Jews”.

The sanctions were also condemned by the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Jewish Leadership council.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/sep/09/ed-miliband-rejects-chief-rabbi-claim-west-bank-sanctions-british-jews-less-safe
But other senior rabbis, many from the progressive wing of the community, have come forward to stress the diversity of views within the British Jewish community, with some backing Miliband’s sanctions, while others warned that concern about the measures should not become an excuse for ignoring settler violence and expansion, and others calling for the government to go further.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Robert Shrimsley in the Financial Times on the recently announced sanctions on West Bank settlements

Israel’s hapless British defenders (Evernote link because paywall)

In the UK, the traditional community leaders and their media outriders fail to discern between defending the existence of Israel and shielding its atrocious government. Many Jews still feel a strong kinship to Israel, but stolid defence when its government goes wrong is not an act of support. Depicting any pushback against Israel as a threat to Jews here risks conflating antisemitism with anti-Israel sentiment, something we rightly fear and constantly warn against.
I hadn't fully appreciated that the UK's Masorti communities (known as Conservative Judaism in the US and Canada, I think) support the sanctions.

Mike Huckabee, the evangelical American ambassador to Israel, called it “Jew hate”. Israel has responded with rage and retaliatory gestures. The UK’s traditional Jewish leadership has fumed. It is worth stressing that the chief rabbi speaks for mainstream orthodox synagogues. Britain’s senior Masorti rabbi offered a far more thoughtful response, calling settler extremism “a violation of God’s name”, a view echoed by progressive rabbis.