The Israeli Goverment Has Become The Monster

[Innula Zenovka]

I think the core of our disagreement is just that you are looking at this from the perspective of the law, which is arguably owned by the court. Meanwhile, many of us look at this as a moral thing, which isn't actually owned by any particular entity.

I understand your perspective, but maybe am less willing to agree that the ICC or other such entities have full ownership of the term. In any case, I can see the argument for saying that the slaughter is just a different set of still very grisly crimes that arguably are just as bad.

My position is that Israel is guilty of a wide range of specific war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza and the West Bank, for which there's a very strong case indeed, rather than that it's guilty of genocide, which opens the door to all sorts of definitional arguments that I'd prefer to avoid because they divert attention from the strong cases that can easily be made.

 

[Ellie]

Introducing the term gencocide gives mass-murder apologists an easy out, as seen in many media interviews.

Any still supporting this monstrous regime are complicit in their crimes, as its becoming harder and harder to claim ignorance with all the media coverage available today. Such as the hand phone recording of the Tel al-Sultan, Gaza, IDF massacre of Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), Palestine Civil Defense and United Nations workers on 23 March 2025.

The perpetrators weren't more careful because they're stupid, but because they don't have to be. Chilling.

Two useful recources covering this & many other Israeli govt. atrocities.

What Audio Analysis Reveals About Aid Workers Killed in Gaza - bellingcat

Forensic Architecture

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Introducing the term gencocide gives mass-murder apologists an easy out, as seen in many media interviews.

Any still supporting this monstrous regime are complicit in their crimes, as its becoming harder and harder to claim ignorance with all the media coverage available today. Such as the hand phone recording of the Tel al-Sultan, Gaza, IDF massacre of Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), Palestine Civil Defense and United Nations workers on 23 March 2025.

The perpetrators weren't more careful because they're stupid, but because they don't have to be. Chilling.

Two useful recources covering this & many other Israeli govt. atrocities.

What Audio Analysis Reveals About Aid Workers Killed in Gaza - bellingcat

Forensic Architecture

Exactly.

Genocide isn't simply “a particularly egregious crime against humanity.” It has a different structure, most importantly that the prosecution must prove specific intent.

A campaign of deliberate starvation, indiscriminate killing, persecution, forcible displacement and systematic attacks on civilians can constitute numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity without necessarily being genocide. That does not make it appreciably less horrifying.

 

[Cristiano]

 

[Ellie]

Exactly.

Genocide isn't simply “a particularly egregious crime against humanity.” It has a different structure, most importantly that the prosecution must prove specific intent.

Definitely avoid using the term genocide with Israeli govt. supporters who’ll whine that's "factually incorrect" in an attempt to shut down debate, and with some grounds if referring to very restrictive rules used to define the term.


UN still generally defines genocide as "proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." Proven is doing the heavy work here. We all know many serious crimes, such as rape, are very hard to prove in a court of law.

And should Israel and/or Bibi be convicted, what then?

As Audioslave once asked, “The question is not when he's gonna stop but who is gonna stop him?”

Meanwhile, the world is increasingly convicting Israel of genocide in the court of public opinion.

Bibi knows the importance of winning the socmed war he's throwing millions at, and may well be losing, hampered by IDF soldiers never expecting to be prosecuted for crimes committed on camera and posted to their accounts. And they may well be right about that.

If a solution to these atrocities exists, it must start with harsh economic sanctions against Israel, followed by removal of Bibi and all his cronies from power, as well as mass re-education of the country’s massively brainwashed citizens.

 

[detrius]

It's kinda like catching a murderer in the middle of the act, knife in hand, blood on their hands, still stabbing the victim.

...and then someone says "Oh, you can't call them a murderer! Have you checked the victim's pulse? They might just be crippled. And the suspect hasn't been tried yet, so calling them a murderer would be unfair! It might just be aggrevated assault."

Meanwhile, the stabbing continues.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

It's kinda like catching a murderer in the middle of the act, knife in hand, blood on their hands, still stabbing the victim.

...and then someone says "Oh, you can't call them a murderer! Have you checked the victim's pulse? They might just be crippled. And the suspect hasn't been tried yet, so calling them a murderer would be unfair! It might just be aggrevated assault."

Meanwhile, the stabbing continues.

I'm not sure that analogy works.

If the victim survives the attack, then depending on what the court makes of the defendant's intentions, It might (in English law, anyway) be attempted murder, or grievous bodily harm with intent, but it can't possibly be murder.

Even if the victim does die, then again depending on the defendant's state of mind at the time, he may be guilty of murder, or of the lesser crime of manslaughter.

Or, because of some mental abnormality at the time of the attack, he may have been incapable of forming any sort of criminal intent, and thus not guilty of anything, in which case it becomes a mental health issue.

In reality, though, surely any reasonable person would be concerned with stopping the attack and calling an ambulance, rather than worrying about what the appropriate charge might be? The charges can come later.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

In reality, though, surely any reasonable person would be concerned with stopping the attack and calling an ambulance, rather than worrying about what the appropriate charge might be? The charges can come later.

That's the actual point of the analogy.

 

[Ellie]

(Kleenex warning)

American Doctor is a 2026 documentary film directed by Poh Si Teng. It follows three American physicians—Palestinian emergency physician Dr. Thaer Ahmad, Jewish orthopedic surgeon Dr. Mark Perlmutter, and Zoroastrian trauma surgeon Dr. Feroze Sidhwa—as they volunteer on medical missions in Gaza and later advocate for change back in the United States.