The Israeli Goverment Has Become The Monster

Ellie

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That links to Press TV, the state-owned Iranian news network. Possibly not the most authoritative source in this context?
Thanks, did not know that when I quoted it, but upon listening to it, felt it offered verifiable facts, such as Sky News running the full clip of the police encounter. Identities of the security detail with Falter showed websites naming them and their positions, also easily verifiable.

The article I quoted from journalist Jonathan Cook also mentions Gideon Falter, calling him an Israel lobbyist.

Pro-Israel hoax
Once again, however, the British media has seemed far less interested in reporting Israeli atrocities than in imputing malign motivations to large sections of the British public incensed by what is happening in Gaza. It was quite extraordinary that the discovery of mass graves in the enclave was almost completely drowned out by an all-too-obvious hoax pulled by an Israel lobbyist. , chief executive of the Campaign Against Antisemitism, has been trying to shut down the peaceful London marches calling for an end to the butchering of men, women and children in Gaza since Israel began its military assault more than six months ago. In Falter’s words, the hundreds of thousands of people who turn out regularly to call for a ceasefire – including a large bloc of Jews – are “lawless mobs” posing a direct threat to Jews like himself. He has found powerful allies in the government. Home Secretary James Cleverly has said the march organisers have “real evil intent”, while his predecessor Suella Braverman labelled the protests calling for a ceasefire as “hate marches”. Both have put pressure on the police to ban the protests for being supposedly antisemitic. There is precisely no evidence for any of these claims. In fact, according to police figures, Glastonbury music festivalgoers were nearly four times more likely to be arrested than those attending the London marches. Which has left the continuing mass marches a major embarrassment to both the UK government and the opposition Labour party by highlighting their continuing complicity in what has become – with revelations like the discovery of mass graves – ever more clearly a genocide.
 
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Ellie

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I'm learning a lot about the regional situation from this long but very interesting YT.

After more than six months, it appears to many that Israel is losing its war in Gaza. At the same time, Israel is fighting Hezbollah on its northern border, relations between Jerusalem and Washington are strained, and the International Court of Justice has ruled that a plausible case can be made that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Thanks, did not know that when I quoted it, but upon listening to it, felt it offered verifiable facts, such as Sky News running the full clip of the police encounter. Identities of the security detail with Falter showed websites naming them and their positions, also easily verifiable.

The article I quoted from journalist Jonathan Cook also mentions Gideon Falter, calling him an Israel lobbyist.
I've been thinking about this quite a bit, not least because the problems in the Labour Party, of which I am a long-time member, under Jeremy Corbyn forced me to reconsider a lot of my attitudes to Palestine and Israel. Since I don't think white people should get to decide if something's racist or not, or men get to decide if something's sexist or not, or straight people decide whether something's homophobic, or non-Muslims decide whether something's Islamophobic, even if that's not the way they intended it to be, I think I should at least listen when Jewish people say they experience something as antisemitic.

While criticism of Israel obviously isn't necessarily antisemitic, it certainly can be; the fact that something is anti-Zionist doesn't preclude the possibility that it is also antisemitic.

I do, therefore, listen to Jewish friends, and take seriously articles by Jewish writers, who say that, whatever their views on Benjamin Netanyahu and on the IDF's assault on Hamas in Gaza, they find the huge and continuing protests in London threatening. This is partly because -- and this is something I'd never really thought about before -- their scale is quite extraordinary. We've seen turnouts of 200,000 or 300,000 or more on major national issues -- the Poll Tax, Iraq, Brexit, and so on -- but time after time demonstrations about Palestine attract similar numbers.

Jewish friends ask why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict consistently attracts so much more attention and concern than -- for example -- Turkey vs Kurds, or the continuing civil war in Syria, or in Yemen (which has been going on for the last 10 years, but I was barely aware of until the Houthis started firing missiles at US and British ships). OK, we sell arms to Israel, but we sell them to Saudi, too, who are active backers of various factions in both the Yemeni and Syrian conflicts, and whose government is at least as unpleasant as that of Netanyahu and Likud, but no one seems too bothered about that.

Of course most people on the demonstrations are there because they're concerned about the suffering of the Palestinians rather than because they sympathise with Hamas, but I think we should remember that the first of the London demonstrations after October 7, attended by thousands of people, took place on October 9, before Israel had attacked Gaza and while the bodies of murdered Israelis were still being recovered from the various kibbutzim and the site of the Nova festival.

However, and this worries me a lot, all these well-meaning people, despite the fact they're protesting out of sympathy for the Palestinians rather than out of sympathy for Hamas, seem perfectly content to march alongside people who certainly are supporters of that right-wing, antisemitic and terrorist organisation, and to chant their slogans. They wouldn't march alongside supporters of the BNP or Britain First in support of a cause they might both happen to support -- against water companies polluting rivers, for example, or against health service cuts -- and neither, I hope, would they march alongside supporters of Narendra Modi's anti-Muslim BJP, or MAGA, but Palestinian right-wing terrorists and theocrats seem to get a free ride.

I can see why some of my Jewish friends find all this very threatening, regardless of their views on Israel and Palestine.
 

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The conflict of Palestines against Israel has similar vibes to David vs. Goliath. Being the underdog makes the Palestines much more likeable in that case. Also Antisemitism never was gone, just not visible.

Anyway we need to be able to make our own decisions if something is antisemitic or not. First and foremost because people like Netanyahu weaponised this term. For Netanyahu it's easy to label all kinds of people who oppose him as antisemitic, and if we don't make then our own decision about it good luck with that.

In case you don't know the book, you should read the controversial book "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering" which has exactly this as topic. It was written by Norman G. Finkelstein, an American political scientist and also jew. His parents survived the holocaust, so he has a pretty own view about how the usage of that term evolved over the years.
 
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Ellie

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I understand and sympathize with Jews feeling threatened by worldwide protests. I'm in awe of the brave Jewish protesters who still march in anti-Israeli gov. protests, despite fears they may become targets of violence and abuse, as the Israeli gov becomes uncreasingly unpopular for its horrific actions.

I also understand there are bad actors on both sides of this conflict seeking to intimidate Jews and Muslims and stir up public opinion against them both. The shooting of Palestinian Americans in Burlington, US, for example, shows these campaigns are effective.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/opinion/politics/palestinian-american-vermont-shooting.html

I also reject the weaponizing of antisemitic accusations to shut down any criticism of the Israeli gov actions and reporting of the situation.

The Palestinian terrorists who have killed and kidnapped Israeli civillians, at any time, do not get a free pass from me. Protestors also cannot know who is marching next to them, and should not be discouraged by the possibility they are bad actors. I acknowledge some less well-informed protestors knowlingly or unknowingly repeat racist and antisemitic chants.

What is appalling to me is the massive collective punishment meted out by the Israeli gov; over 35,000 Palestinians have been killed, including 105 journalists and over 224 humanitarian aid workers.

I'd like to think all those responsible for killing non-combatants will be brought to justice. I'll settle for a halt to the killing, and time to mourn, bury the dead, and rebuild. Doubt I will see this in my lifetime.

The Israeli gov now faces fallout from the flood of reports of dire human rights abuses it can no longer even try to stem, especially since everbody and his neighbour has a phone able to take pictures and shoot video, while IDF members stupidly post proof of their abuses to socmed accounts.

I'm still awaiting credible reports on the mass graves discovered at Gaza's hospitals to form any opinion, while actively seeking a better understanding of all aspects of this conflict.

This story is told in three parts. The first documents the unequal system of justice that grew around Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. The second shows how extremists targeted not only Palestinians but also Israeli officials trying to make peace. The third explores how this movement gained control of the state itself. Taken together, they tell the story of how a radical ideology moved from the fringes to the heart of Israeli political power.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/magazine/israel-west-bank-settler-violence-impunity.html
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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The conflict of Palestines against Israel has similar vibes to David vs. Goliath. Being the underdog makes the Palestines much more likeable in that case. Also Antisemitism never was gone, just not visible.
Yes. I understand the psychology of wanting to root for the underdog but also think it's a massive fallacy to assume the weaker party must be more morally correct. I've seen a lot of people make this fallacy either directly or implicitly.

Anyway we need to be able to make our own decisions if something is antisemitic or not. First and foremost because people like Netanyahu weaponised this term. For Netanyahu it's easy to label all kinds of people who oppose him as antisemitic, and if we don't make then our own decision about it good luck with that.
As a general rule, I take people seriously when they are experiencing bigotry but am very skeptical when governments or very powerful people want to say they are the victims of it. Because yes, there has been both an explosion of real antisemitism and an explosion of hiding behind that term to deflect and ignore all criticism. It's pretty nebulous.

I've also seen an explosion of center-right people acting like the LGBT community is collectively guilty for some dumb things certain gay people have said...

In case you don't know the book, you should read the controversial book "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering" which has exactly this as topic. It was written by Norman G. Finkelstein, an American political scientist and also jew.
Been thumbing through the reviews.... I might have to pick it up!
 
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Anyway we need to be able to make our own decisions if something is antisemitic or not. First and foremost because people like Netanyahu weaponised this term. For Netanyahu it's easy to label all kinds of people who oppose him as antisemitic, and if we don't make then our own decision about it good luck with that.
It reminds me of Putin calling everyone who opposes Russia's expansionist policies a Nazi.
 

Innula Zenovka

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I also reject the weaponizing of antisemitic accusations to shut down any criticism of the Israeli gov actions and reporting of the situation.
Yes, but I'm sure you'd agree that something like this -- from a protest in Leeds, a city in the north of England, earlier this month -- is clearly antisemitic




What worries me is that people who are supposedly anti-racist and "don't have an antisemitic bone in their bodies" are apparently prepared to turn a blind eye to, and march alongside, people who clearly do hate Jews and are proud to advertise the fact.
 
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Ellie

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Yes, but I'm sure you'd agree that something like this -- from a protest in Leeds, a city in the north of England, earlier this month -- is clearly antisemitic




What worries me is that people who are supposedly anti-racist and "don't have an antisemitic bone in their bodies" are apparently prepared to turn a blind eye to, and march alongside, people who clearly do hate Jews and are proud to advertise the fact.
Yes, of course, but is this an extreme case, or the norm for these protests? I cannot tell from the mainstream press coverage.

Returning from a downtown meeting a while ago, I spotted a press crew covering a very small protest of no more than two dozen persons waving placards, couldn't even remember what it was all about until I saw the evening news coverage shot at angles making it appear to be huge demonstration.

This is my problem: who to believe, what's their agenda, and can I trust the sources?

These (I'm pretty sure) aren't either anitsemitic or staged.

https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1793628894245118205

https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1760766861279391872
 
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Ellie

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Gaza is 50% children, Israeli policy is starving Gazan children.

Israeli NGO B'Tselem reports Israel is committing the war crime of starvation in the Gaza Strip "Manufacturing Famine: Israel is Committing the War Crime of Starvation in the Gaza Strip"

"The organization concludes, based on various reports from international bodies about the situation in Gaza and on testimonies gathered by B'Tselem's field researchers, that for months, Israel has been committing the crime of starvation under international law in the Gaza Strip.

The severe hunger that has developed over recent months in the Gaza Strip is not a result of fate, but the product of a deliberate and conscious Israeli policy. It has been openly declared by decision makers, including a member of the Israeli war cabinet, from the very beginning of the war."

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20242022_israel_is_committing_the_war_crime_of_starvation_in_the_gaza_strip

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202404_manufacturing_famine

https://x.com/btselem
 

Innula Zenovka

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Yes, of course, but is this an extreme case, or the norm for these protest? I cannot tell from the press coverage.

Returning from a downtown meeting a whiel ago, I spotted a press crew covering a very small protest of no more than two dozen persons waving placards, couldn't even remeber what it all about until I saw the evening new coverage shot at angles making it appear to be huge demonstration.

This is the problem; who to believe, what's their agenda, and can we trust the sources?

This (I'm prety sure) isn't either anitsemitic or staged.

https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1793628894245118205
That's
Yes, of course, but is this an extreme case, or the norm for these protests? I cannot tell from the mainstream press coverage.

Returning from a downtown meeting a while ago, I spotted a press crew covering a very small protest of no more than two dozen persons waving placards, couldn't even remember what it was all about until I saw the evening news coverage shot at angles making it appear to be huge demonstration.
I don't attend these protests, so I don't know, either. Leeds is a major city in the north of England where about 7% of the population is Muslim, and it's a few miles from the city of Bradford, where Muslims comprise about 30% of the population. The Jewish chaplain at the local university, an Israeli citizen, and his family have had to go into hiding after receiving threats against them when he to Leeds in February having served with his IDF Reserve unit in Gaza.
Chief Rabbi says those who forced Leeds rabbi into hiding are a threat to ‘all of our society’ (and whatever one might think of his joining his unit when ordered so to do, threats to rape and murder his wife and family are well out of order).

As Rafael Behr argues here, there's a good deal of denial in the UK on the left of antisemitism, just as there's a great deal of denial on the right of Islamophobia.

This is my problem: who to believe, what's their agenda, and can I trust the sources?

These (I'm pretty sure) aren't either anitsemitic or staged.

https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1793628894245118205

https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1760766861279391872
Yes, but what wider point should I draw from that? If you mean that that IDF, at the behest of the current Israeli far-right government, is causing immense suffering in Gaza, then I agree. I also agree that Netanyahu and other senior Israeli government and military figures should be prosecuted at the ICC, along with the senior Hamas figures who are guilty of far worse crimes.

But a lot of the demonstrators seem to want to take it further than that.
 

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Well the left being antisemitic dates back to the USSR under Stalin. Stalin implemented anti-semitic policies, amongst other things, in the 1930s. He also acted against a "jewish physician conspiracy."

After the 6 day war the left sided with Palestine partly because the USSR was pro-arabic. Many also viewed the Palestines as supressed people, which are fighting for their freedom, while Israel was a hated, capitalistic state and ally to the even more hated USA.
 
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Ellie

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... along with the senior Hamas figures who are guilty of far worse crimes.
Worse than the continual murder and displacement of Palestinians for the last 70 or so years, and now their deliberate starvation?

Still influenced by Israeli lies Hamas beheaded babies, put babies in ovens, & carried out systematic rape on 7 October 2023? With incoming Israeli tanks, helicopters & ground troops?

Still believe an Arabic calendar was a terrorist work schedule?

That destroying hospitals & executing medical staff was only part of an anti-terrorist op?

That assassinating 7 World Central Kitchen (WCK) aid workers was a 'mistake" and not policy?

But a lot of the demonstrators seem to want to take it further than that.
Ah, but is it a lot, or a very vocal few? As neither of us were present at these demos, could it be some bad actors are engaging in antisemitic and racist behavior while the rest are genuinely protesting what they perceive as genocide? Of the millions protesting worldwide? Or are they all terrorist apologists?

Agree it's appalling the Rabbi & his family are receiving death threats.

His IDF service, however, raises a larger question about those who serve in other countries’ armies & return to their countries of residence. What then, if they do, in fact, turn out to be war criminals?

No Jews anywhere should have to live in fear for their lives.

Nor should any Palestinians, who are being massively murdered, displaced, and starved.
 

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A word from Israel's minister of strategic affairs... as was to be expected. Spain, Ireland and Norway stands now for SIN.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Worse than the continual murder and displacement of Palestinians for the last 70 or so years, and now their deliberate starvation?

Still influenced by Israeli lies Hamas beheaded babies, put babies in ovens, & carried out systematic rape on 7 October 2023? With incoming Israeli tanks, helicopters & ground troops?

Still believe an Arabic calendar was a terrorist work schedule?

That destroying hospitals & executing medical staff was only part of an anti-terrorist op?

That assassinating 7 World Central Kitchen (WCK) aid workers was a 'mistake" and not policy?
I had in mind the various (and separate) matters for which Karim Khan KC is asking the International Criminal Court to warrants for the arrest of various members of Hamas' political and military leadership and for the arrest of Benjamin Netanyahu and his defence minister Yoav Gallant.



Ah, but is it a lot, or a very vocal few? As neither of us were present at these demos, could it be some bad actors are engaging in antisemitic and racist behavior while the rest are genuinely protesting what they perceive as genocide? Of the millions protesting worldwide? Or are they all terrorist apologists?
My point is that that, while the great majority of the people attending these demonstrations are, I am sure, there not because they have bear any particular animosity towards Jews but because they want to protest against the suffering of the people of Gaza. However, at least in the UK, they are marching under the auspices of an organisation that, on October 8th, greeted the news of the largest mass murder of Jews since WW2, with this

That's while the bodies were still being recovered from the various kibbutzim and from the site of the Nova festival, well before any retaliatory military operations got underway.

There's always a context to everything, of course, but I'm a bit alarmed by people who are prepared to contextualise what was, whatever else it was too, a pogrom the day after it's happen, and rather concerned, too, that well-meaning people are prepared to ignore the fact it was a pogrom because of their justified concerns about the people on whose behalf the pogrom-contextualizers are organising demonstrations.

Agree it's appalling the Rabbi & his family are receiving death threats.

His IDF service, however, raises a larger question about those who serve in other countries’ armies & return to their countries of residence. What then, if they do, in fact, turn out to be war criminals?
Military service is, as I understand it, compulsory for almost all Israeli citizens, male and female, so your suspicions would seem to apply to just about all Israelis you might encounter. Absent any credible evidence that either they personally or the units in which they served were guilty of war crimes, I wouldn't worry overmuch. Would you disagree?
No Jews anywhere should have to live in fear for their lives.

Nor should any Palestinians, who are being massively murdered, displaced, and starved.
I wholly agree, though I question the extent to which these demonstrations -- at least those in the UK -- are going to help any Palestinians in any material way.
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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I wholly agree, though I question the extent to which these demonstrations -- at least those in the UK -- are going to help any Palestinians in any material way.
There have been big protests in my US city through Jewish communities and often aimed at Synagogues. I think it's pretty clear that this is doing more to terrorize local Jewish people than hurt Israel. By comparison I'd fully understand protesting around government buildings if the protesters feel this may discourage law makers from sending more weapons to Israel.
 

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There have been big protests in my US city through Jewish communities and often aimed at Synagogues. I think it's pretty clear that this is doing more to terrorize local Jewish people than hurt Israel. By comparison I'd fully understand protesting around government buildings if the protesters feel this may discourage law makers from sending more weapons to Israel.
Yeah, if I was going to protest the actions of the Israeli government, I'd do it in front of a consulate or embassy. Not at a synagogue that has nothing to do whatsoever with the actions of the Israeli government.

I'd also be protesting the actions of Hamas, who are asshole terrorists whose actions help continue the cycle of death and retaliation.
 

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It kills me how these last three posts attempt to dictate how people are supposed to voice their protests in an "approved" manner. It's not what they are doing, it's how they do it or concern that they might be wasting their time. No, it's what they are doing that really bothers you.

My God. Look at what is happening to these Palestinian people. I'm glad people are doing something.