Rittenhouse Acquitted of all charges

WolfEyes

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As I understand it, his case (which the jury accepted) was that he took the rifle with him not in order to cause unlawful bodily harm but in order to deter attackers and looters, and in order to protect himself and others, and that he used it only in lawful self-defence.

How do you persuade the jury to that they are sure that his motivations were not, or may not have been, as he says they were? Remember the burden of proof is on the prosecution, so the accused gets, or should get, the benefit of the doubt.
Again, the very definition of vigilantism.

I'm not a prosecutor and I don't live in that state so I can't answer that question. Hell, I can't even persuade people to see his vigilantism for what it was let alone a jury.
 

WolfEyes

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I'm saying that's what I think he was trying to be... those are my words. I'll also say most vigilantes probably see themselves as heroes or at least aspire to be. ...when they should have stayed home and minded their own business.
ok I was making sure you weren't assuming that was what I was thinking. lol

Well, I won't say they should stay at home and mind their own business because the reason for all of this happening is everyone's business. I know what you mean though. He should have let law enforcement handle it. And that is precisely where he tripped over his own vigilantism. It's where they all trip up. Every time.
 

WolfEyes

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In the back is different than in the back of the head.
So either there's some sloppy newsreporting going on, falsehoods being spread as gospel, or who knows what. Yes pics of the wounds are said to include a head wound but for the 'fatal wound' to be the one in the back seems to tell me his head was intact.

Medical examiner gives graphic testimony on injuries that killed Rittenhouse shooting victims
A little further down in that article:

The testimony was accompanied by graphic photos of the fatal injuries shown to the jury, including a gunshot wound to Rosenbaum's head and a bullet hole in his back.
Ok something isn't adding up here. Total number of wounds 4, back, hand, groin, thigh. Yet the pics show a 5th to the head? So why is the coroner saying only 4 wounds if there are 5?

To clarify I read more than one article that said there were 4 wounds. Nothing was mentioned about a 5th. How many wounds were there in total?
 
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WolfEyes

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Again, the very definition of vigilantism.

I'm not a prosecutor and I don't live in that state so I can't answer that question. Hell, I can't even persuade people to see his vigilantism for what it was let alone a jury.
Innula Zenovka
Come to think of it, if I were the prosecution, I would have charged him with vigilantism. I don't think it was one of the charges, was it?
 
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Come to think of it, if I were the prosecution, I would have charged him with vigilantism. I don't think it was one of the charges, was it?
Several lessor charges were discussed but not pursued... not sure why. They really could have "thrown the book" at him but did not.
 

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Several lessor charges were discussed but not pursued... not sure why. They really could have "thrown the book" at him but did not.
And that is what I keep going back to. Was vigilantism one of the charges discussed? If it wasn't, why wasn't it? There was something fishy about this trial before it ever started and it just got fishier as it went on with the expected end result of acquittal on all charges.

Follow the money.

The next Kyle Rittenhouse legal battle? The $2 million bail posted after his arrest. (yahoo.com)

Schroeder dismissed a misdemeanor gun charge and ticket for a curfew violation during the trial.
Both dismissed charges were charges Rittenhouse was guilty of.
 
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Caete

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A little further down in that article:



Ok something isn't adding up here. Total number of wounds 4, back, hand, groin, thigh. Yet the pics show a 5th to the head? So why is the coroner saying only 4 wounds if there are 5?

To clarify I read more than one article that said there were 4 wounds. Nothing was mentioned about a 5th. How many wounds were there in total?
I agree that something fails to add up. Either head is wrong or hand is or the head injury is an exit wound, perhaps caused by his suicide attempt previously, shot by someone else?

Every article I've read mentions 4. IMO the groin thigh hand make sense as instinctive reaction would be to reach towards the site of pain. So shot in the groin, hand enters and is shot then thigh shot. As he was moving, I'm fairly certain he'd have fallen as his leg gave out which would account for his tumbling forward and the shot into his back.

I'm no expert but I can't see any way that makes sense that he was shot in the head. If he was shot in the head as he fell forward and that bullet managed to not just explode his head but cleanly exit, somehow enter his back at the right angle to hit his lungs and liver, I just can't see how that trajectory works out. I'm not a ballistics expert.

Or perhaps the head trauma is from an protected fall onto the concrete.

If I manage to get a hold of the pics to see, maybe it will clarify things and I'll be able to better explain what they were trying to say. I will not share said pics/post/link them here if/when I manage to get copies of them.
 
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WolfEyes

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I agree that something fails to add up. Either head is wrong or hand is or the head injury is an exit wound, perhaps caused by his suicide attempt previously, shot by someone else?

Every article I've read mentions 4. IMO the groin thigh hand make sense as instinctive reaction would be to reach towards the site of pain. So shot in the groin, hand enters and is shot then thigh shot. As he was moving, I'm fairly certain he'd have fallen as his leg gave out which would account for his tumbling forward and the shot into his back.

I'm no expert but I can't see any way that makes sense that he was shot in the head. If he was shot in the head as he fell forward and that bullet managed to not just explode his head but cleanly exit, somehow enter his back at the right angle to hit his lungs and liver, I just can't see how that trajectory works out. I'm not a ballistics expert.

Or perhaps the head trauma is from an protected fall onto the concrete.

If I manage to get a hold of the pics to see, maybe it will clarify things and I'll be able to better explain what they were trying to say. I will not share said pics/post/link them here if/when I manage to get copies of them.
Another question not addressed. How many shots were fired? Did he empty the clip? What size clip did he use, the (if I remember right) 5 bullet magazine or the 10? Back in the 90s when I was firing an AR-15 they had just outlawed all the large capacity clips. And the one he used as seen in the pics wasn't a 30 round clip. How many times did he need to change out the clip?

These are questions that should have been answered. I see no indication they were even brought up.

And thanks. I can't even bring myself to watch the videos. I don't think my blood pressure can handle it.
 
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Caete

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And that is what I keep going back to. Was vigilantism one of the charges discussed? If it wasn't, why wasn't it? There was something fishy about this trial before it ever started and it just got fishier as it went on with the expected end result of acquittal on all charges.

Follow the money.

The next Kyle Rittenhouse legal battle? The $2 million bail posted after his arrest. (yahoo.com)



Both dismissed charges were charges Rittenhouse was guilty of.
It is mostly a case of follow the incompetence. You've a prosector who makes Lionel Hutz look like Matlock.
Dropbox was being used for all documents etc between the defense, prosecutors, state lab.
Prosecutor Krauss for some reason sends email of drone video instead of using Dropbox.
Prosecutor Krauss sends 2 emails instead of 1. Lab gets video file A which is the same size as the original. Defense gets video file B which is 1/3 the size and much lesser quality.
Prosecutor Krauss blames it on the defense's laptop, phone, email software., "we're not responsible for what their software does"
Prosecutor Krauss used personal gmail to send files instead of a work/secure email.
Prosecutor Krauss has Handbrake and Format Factory installed on his laptop. Both are video editing tools. It doesn't mean he used them to edit the drone footage but does make his excuse about "having no idea how his team sent a lower quality video to the defense" a load of rubbish.
Prosecutor Binger points the rifle at members of the jury, flagging them (the act of pointing the barrel of a firearm at another) with his fucking finger on the trigger.


The entire prosecution team needs to be investigated.
ETA: The meta data on the 2 video files do not match. In fact it indicates the smaller/lesser quality file (B) was created 21 minutes after the first file (A).
 
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Come to think of it, if I were the prosecution, I would have charged him with vigilantism. I don't think it was one of the charges, was it?
There is no criminal charge for vigilantism. There generally is for whatever form that may take, such as murder.
 

WolfEyes

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It is mostly a case of follow the incompetence. You've a prosector who makes Lionel Hutz look like Matlock.
Dropbox was being used for all documents etc between the defense, prosecutors, state lab.
Prosecutor Krauss for some reason sends email of drone video instead of using Dropbox.
Prosecutor Krauss sends 2 emails instead of 1. Lab gets video file A which is the same size as the original. Defense gets video file B which is 1/3 the size and much lesser quality.
Prosecutor Krauss blames it on the defense's laptop, phone, email software., "we're not responsible for what their software does"
Prosecutor Krauss used personal gmail to send files instead of a work/secure email.
Prosecutor Krauss has Handbrake and Format Factory installed on his laptop. Both are video editing tools. It doesn't mean he used them to edit the drone footage but does make his excuse about "having no idea how his team sent a lower quality video to the defense" a load of rubbish.
Prosecutor Binger points the rifle at members of the jury, flagging them (the act of pointing the barrel of a firearm at another) with his fucking finger on the trigger.


The entire prosecution team needs to be investigated.
ETA: The meta data on the 2 video files do not match. In fact it indicates the smaller/lesser quality file (B) was created 21 minutes after the first file (A).
Makes you wonder who paid the prosecution to throw the case doesn't it. Note that is not a question.
 
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WolfEyes

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There is no criminal charge for vigilantism. There generally is for whatever form that may take, such as murder.
I haven't looked at Wisconsin(?) but just a general google gets me this:


so there are definitely laws on the books in at least one state, if not more, that have a charge of vigilantism.

Where things get really messy is when "stand your ground" laws trump the vigilantism laws.
 
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I haven't looked at Wisconsin(?) but just a general google gets me this:


so there are definitely laws on the books in at least one state, if not more, that have a charge of vigilantism.
Yes, in the very particular case of you take revenge against a juvenile sex offender in Idaho taking advantage of that state's right to know law, the law has the word vigilantism in it.
 

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Yes, in the very particular case of you take revenge against a juvenile sex offender in Idaho taking advantage of that state's right to know law, the law has the word vigilantism in it.
That is going off on a tangent that has nothing to do with my point. No thank you.
 
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That is going off on a tangent that has nothing to do with my point. No thank you.
I thought the point was to bring a charge of vigilantism. My point is there is no such general charge.
 

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Come to think of it, if I were the prosecution, I would have charged him with vigilantism. I don't think it was one of the charges, was it?
We'd need to look up the law in Wisconsin prohibiting vigilantism, to see what points the prosecution has to prove.

Obviously as a Brit I don't think it's a particularly smart idea to have people running round with loaded firearms in public, and certainly not untrained hormonal teens who clearly have action hero fantasies, but it seems that people see things differently in Wisconsin.
 

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Another question not addressed. How many shots were fired? Did he empty the clip? What size clip did he use, the (if I remember right) 5 bullet magazine or the 10? Back in the 90s when I was firing an AR-15 they had just outlawed all the large capacity clips. And the one he used as seen in the pics wasn't a 30 round clip. How many times did he need to change out the clip?

These are questions that should have been answered. I see no indication they were even brought up.

And thanks. I can't even bring myself to watch the videos. I don't think my blood pressure can handle it.
Hard to tell from the videos but it appears Kyle has a 30 rnd magazine in his rifle. It is curved which tends to indicate a higher capacity than 10/15.

Kyle fired a total of 8 times.

Shots in the video are as follows:
#1 fired into the air by Racine resident Joshua Ziminski
#2-5 Kyle fires at Rosenbaum
#6-7 Kyle fires at "dropkick guy"
#8 Kyle fires at Huber
#9 Kyle fires at Grosskreutz
#10-26+ unknown sources

Yes, there are 16+ shots fired of off camera into who knows what direction. I lost count around 26.

DETAILS:
#1 Joshua Ziminski fired a handgun into the air from about 100 feet away (and thus well within earshot) from where Joseph Rosenbaum was running at Rittenhouse. According to court documents, Joshua Ziminski told police he had fired a “warning shot.” By the time he was interviewed by police in October 2020, Ziminski said the gun had been stolen. For their actions that night, the Ziminskis were criminally charged. Joshua has been charged with felony arson of property other than a building (for setting the contents of a dumpster on fire), misdemeanor disorderly conduct with use of a dangerous weapon and obstructing an officer. Charges on his wife Kelly have been dropped.

#2-5 shots at Rosenbaum hit his groin, back and left hand. The bullets perforated Rosenbaum's heart, aorta, pulmonary artery and right lung, fractured his pelvis, and caused minor wounds to his left thigh and forehead

#6-7 both shots missed

#8 Huber makes contact with Rittenhouse's left shoulder with a skateboard as the pair struggled for control of the gun, as Huber was pulling on the rifle, Rittenhouse fired once, hitting Huber in the chest, perforating his heart and right lung, causing his rapid death

#9 Grosskreutz had an expired concealed carry permit for a handgun and was carrying a Glock pistol. He approached Rittenhouse, who was on the ground, but stopped and put his hands up after Huber was shot. Grosskreutz then pointed his handgun and advanced on Rittenhouse, who shot Grosskreutz in the arm, severing most of his right biceps muscle.

#10+ no info
 
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WolfEyes

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Hard to tell from the videos but it appears Kyle has a 30 rnd magazine in his rifle. It is curved which tends to indicate a higher capacity than 10/15.

Kyle fired a total of 8 times.

Shots in the video are as follows:
#1 fired into the air by Racine resident Joshua Ziminski
#2-5 Kyle fires at Rosenbaum
#6-7 Kyle fires at "dropkick guy"
#8 Kyle fires at Huber
#9 Kyle fires at Grosskreutz
#10-26+ unknown sources

Yes, there are 16+ shots fired of off camera into who knows what direction. I lost count around 26.

DETAILS:
#1 Joshua Ziminski fired a handgun into the air from about 100 feet away (and thus well within earshot) from where Joseph Rosenbaum was running at Rittenhouse. According to court documents, Joshua Ziminski told police he had fired a “warning shot.” By the time he was interviewed by police in October 2020, Ziminski said the gun had been stolen. For their actions that night, the Ziminskis were criminally charged. Joshua has been charged with felony arson of property other than a building (for setting the contents of a dumpster on fire), misdemeanor disorderly conduct with use of a dangerous weapon and obstructing an officer. Charges on his wife Kelly have been dropped.

#2-5 shots at Rosenbaum hit his groin, back and left hand. The bullets perforated Rosenbaum's heart, aorta, pulmonary artery and right lung, fractured his pelvis, and caused minor wounds to his left thigh and forehead

#6-7 both shots missed

#8 Huber makes contact with Rittenhouse's left shoulder with a skateboard as the pair struggled for control of the gun, as Huber was pulling on the rifle, Rittenhouse fired once, hitting Huber in the chest, perforating his heart and right lung, causing his rapid death

#9 Grosskreutz had an expired concealed carry permit for a handgun and was carrying a Glock pistol. He approached Rittenhouse, who was on the ground, but stopped and put his hands up after Huber was shot. Grosskreutz then pointed his handgun and advanced on Rittenhouse, who shot Grosskreutz in the arm, severing most of his right biceps muscle.

#10+ no info
I'm sorry I should have been more specific. I meant total rounds that Rittenhouse fired, no one else. But I think I can figure it out from what you posted.

This just confirms what I was thinking. Rittenhouse wasn't in such a panic that he was firing indiscriminately. He didn't empty the clip.

I find it mind boggling that supposedly intelligent people actually believe his story when the video(s) show what happened was not the way he described. Frankly, I think they fell for his baby face and fake tear (singular).

ETA: and as for the number of rounds the magazine holds, I was visualizing them (the rounds) as larger in diameter than they actually are. Now that I've had a chance to pull memories, I have to agree he used the 30-round magazine.
 

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He shot the first victim in the back of the head. That's execution, which is to say, murder. What it is not is self -defense.
Uh uh uh... Remember, the judge said they can't be referred to as victims. :rolleyes:
 
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Katheryne Helendale

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Thank you. I had a feeling that was the case. I've been in that position here before many times. It's not a pleasant feeling and makes one wonder if one is really welcome here. I am sorry if I made you feel that way. It was not intended.

Regardless of whether or not his mother drove him or he drove himself, he took an AR-15 with him on that trip or had one waiting for him when he got there, he went with the intention of causing bodily harm. Full stop. Those fine details you are nitpicking over do not change that one simple fact. He went to Kenosha with the intent to cause harm and/or death. There is no other way to put it even though he claims he went to protect. His method of protection was bodily harm and death. That is not protection, that is vigilantism.


ETA: Every time someone "takes the law into their own hands" (vigilantism) they are breaking the law. There is a very thin line between serving the public, and breaking the law. Regardless of the intention, vigilantism is illegal.
I don't know about Wisconsin, but in many states, if you commit a crime and someone dies as a result, you are responsible for it. Kyle committed a few crimes here, and two people died as a result.