Linden Lab lays off 30 staff

Chin Rey

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It's a miracle SL has lasted this long.
LL was at the right spot at the right time and was able to establish itself when there was little or no competetion around.

Even so, a friend of mine has an ex-boyfriend who did some comission work for LL back in 2008. She told me that he had told her that the Lindens had told him they never expected SL to last as long as five years.
 
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Dakota Tebaldi

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Second Life has been slowly but surely moving away from the in-world creation concept for over a decade now. This process was well underway when Altberg took over, even back in 2012 when Humble became the CEO. I've yet to see any of those "longtime Linden developers" do anything effective to stop it - quite the contrary - although to be fair I don't know what's happened behind the scene of course.
I don't see why we would even want them to stop it. There's no possible way SL could make an in-world building toolset that would even marginally approach the capabilities or quality of what you can make using modern 3D creation software.

I don't want to put down the talents of prim-builders or the creativity it took to work within the limitations of the prim system and build awesome looking stuff with that tool. But let's level here - for stuff of equal "visual fidelity", mesh done competently looks better and is less resource-intensive, sometimes by loads - and that's not even getting into things like materials and rigging.

I think with things like estate Windlight, experience keys, and well the whole scripting system, there's still plenty of in-world creation going on in SL.
 

RyanSchultz

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I completely agree. In-world creation tools cannot compare with what you can now do in external programs like Blender, Maya and 3ds Max.
However, I do note that some of the newer platforms like Somnium Space and Sinespace do offer some in-world building tools.
 

Chin Rey

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I don't see why we would even want them to stop it. There's no possible way SL could make an in-world building toolset that would even marginally approach the capabilities or quality of what you can make using modern 3D creation software.
I don't have the textbook answer to that and I don't think anybody else has either. SL could have taken several courses in the past and it's hard to say which would have been the "right" one. The one they ended up on, leading away from the user as a creator and towards the user as a consumer, was not a deliberate choice by LL but as a result of consequences they should have seen but somehow overlooked.
Unless we can find an alternative universe where things turned out differently, I think people just have to agree to disagree whether the direction LL accidentally stumbled onto was the best one or not. But of course, since this really was about inworld creation tools missing from Sansar, from your point of view it made perfectly sense for LL to elave them out.


I do note that some of the newer platforms like Somnium Space and Sinespace do offer some in-world building tools.
I don't know about Somnium Space but Sinespace has Archimatix. It's not really an inworld creation tool but rather an inworld editing tool using rigged meshes and a node system.
The nodes means Archimatix can dynamically create and remove instances of sub meshes. For example if you resize a staircase, Archimatix meshes can increase or decrease the number of steps rather than the size of them.
The rigging is in principle the same as rigged mesh/animesh but used in a very different way. Think of it as animesh without animations but with poses that can be edited inworld.
 
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Sid

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People who came to SL to build a bit and make an occasional sale out of it, but did not feel the urge to become a real 3D artist, were basically screwed the moment sculpts came to SL. And when mesh entered, they were chaised away already.
In 2007 when I arrived in SL people were actively trying to build their own houses, making their clothes, furniture etc.
Now most SL residents can only be creative trough their wallets.
And it is LL that pushed their customers in that direction, intended or by coincidence, but they did.
A lot of creativity left the building.
 
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Dakota Tebaldi

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I really don't know if I can agree with you guys on that.

Generally speaking, even in pre-mesh days, only the actual building of the shape of things was ever really an entirely in-world thing. If you ever wanted to put any textures beyond "plywood" on the things you've built, you either had to be familiar if not competent enough with an external third-party painting program to make the texture on your own, or else you had to be a consumer, acquiring those textures from someone else inside or outside SL who had those skills. (Yes, I know the SL internal builder had procedural texture tools, but they were always highly rudimentary and -very- rarely used - at least in my experience.)

For any other type of creation in SL aside from 3D modeling, you've always faced this dichotomy of being either an external creator or a consumer, no exceptions. Other textural items, like skins and clothing, are almost exclusively consumed resources and always have been. Sounds, for emitters or gestures - unless you wanted to buy from a commercial library and (illegally, probably) upload them to SL, you had to know how to capture the sounds on your own and cut clips to upload to SL, usually using Audacity or similar. Animations, another big one.

But even categorizing things as "consumer-based", is a little misleading when we're talking about SL I think. The people creating and selling those things are still SL users, and everything we "consume" is still user-created content. That's way different that using "consumption-based" in the context of like a microtransaction store where LL would be replacing user-created content with stuff they've made and forcing everyone to buy it from them if they want to own or make anything.
 

Fionalein

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People who came to SL to build a bit and make an occasional sale out of it, but did not feel the urge to become a real 3D artist, were basically screwed the moment sculpts came to SL. And when mesh entered, they were chaised away already.
In 2007 when I arrived in SL people were actively trying to build their own houses, making their clothes, furniture etc.
Now most SL residents can only be creative trough their wallets.
And it is LL that pushed their customers in that direction, intended or by coincidence, but they did.
A lot of creativity left the building.
I do not quite agree with that, thanks to fullperm mesh suppliers you can pretty much build pretty much without any meshing knowlege.
 

Soen Eber

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Now most SL residents can only be creative trough their wallets ... A lot of creativity left the building.
I've made plenty of homes entirely of prims and people still like them (caviet: I don't sell anything). Nowadays I make toys with a combination of prims and purchased full perm mesh components and people like those even more.

It's just a question of skill and creativity, and even with the mesh elements, the cost rarely exceeds the price of a r/l cheeseburger, and half of what I purchase gets reused in other projects.

Examples in links.
Soen's Workshop
Soen's Free Textures
 
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Aribeth Zelin

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Actually, the advent of -mesh- made it far easier for me to be creative, because I suck at 2d art, unless its pure design. But I can generate procedural textures for a mesh.

I think its more that somewhere it became considered not 'original' to not make everything yourself; even if you were making FP resources for other, you weren't original. And that falls more on the community rather than on LL itself.

The problem is, while they made premiums more attractive [even while jacking the prices], they went and took away stuff from people who were on free accounts. I ended up tiering down to a chunk for playing around with when I have a spare moment, and keeping my shop as long as it still makes enough to keep paying for itself. If I had more time, I'd probably just head over to Sinespace; I like the fact I can have a place to call my own as a free account, and well... unity is a better engine. But don't have the time, so just dabble with SL when I need a 3d modeling fix.
 

Argent Stonecutter

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My conversation with LL developers in SL have included all kinds of exciting discussions about things they're planning or hope to be working on that never came out or came out in ridiculously nerfed form. So any idea that the developers hold reins of power at LL is nuts. Wasn't fitmesh a private project that an ex-developer had to publicly shame LL into adopting?

I don't see why we would even want them to stop it. There's no possible way SL could make an in-world building toolset that would even marginally approach the capabilities or quality of what you can make using modern 3D creation software.
Prim building is still a thing, and providing a halfway house tool that allowed you to meshify prims and edit mesh would be a major improvement. It would also avoid the whole problem of every mesh "X" looking basically the same because they're all "Bob & Jane's Popular X".

Edit: As for someone's comment about having to use painting tools for textures, 2d editing is WAY easier to learn than 3d.
 
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Caliandris

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I don't see why we would even want them to stop it. There's no possible way SL could make an in-world building toolset that would even marginally approach the capabilities or quality of what you can make using modern 3D creation software.

I don't want to put down the talents of prim-builders or the creativity it took to work within the limitations of the prim system and build awesome looking stuff with that tool. But let's level here - for stuff of equal "visual fidelity", mesh done competently looks better and is less resource-intensive, sometimes by loads - and that's not even getting into things like materials and rigging.

I think with things like estate Windlight, experience keys, and well the whole scripting system, there's still plenty of in-world creation going on in SL.
Well I hate to be the only one to disagree with this, but I do, fiercely. What I found when I joined in 2004 was a very collaborative world, one where people would share their skills, their builds, their techniques. I still find people in SL willing to spend time and money to help others to fulfil their creative vision, lending land, providing support, giving people time and space and attention when they have nothing to gain themselves except the satisfaction of helping someone else.

I adore building with prims in Second Life, and hate Blender and Maya with a passion. What I will do, for hours, for enjoyment in SL has me ready to kill my computer with a hammer after only 20 minutes, trying to build in blender. In SL I feel free and able to cobble prims together easily, however much I try, I will never have the same enjoyment from building in a 3D design programme, and more than that, it can never be the collaborative exercise that co-building in SL could be. When we built Numbakulla in SL, there were a group of 10 people, which reduced to about six people in the course of the project, building together, sparking ideas from each other and sharing the space in a way which is simply not possible if you take all the creation outside SL. Yes, you can share mood boards, and design ideas, but it isn't natural and organic in the way that working in SL with prim building tools was.

If LL had put their effort into making an in-world mesh-making tool, I think that would have been a far better use of the time and expertise at that disposal, frankly. Like others, I have watched the build of Sansar with some scepticism: SL needing good graphics cards and a relatively high-end machine was enough of an entry barrier to make many projects die during the brainstorming session with companies, and particularly health services; adding in VR headsets to the mix wasn't likely to make it better or easier to sell.

Constantly seeking a way to find a new audience and ignoring the audience you have is not the pathway to success. Rod Humble seemed locked into the idea of SL as a game, and that is a significant misunderstanding of most residents' way of using the platform. He thought that attracting gamers to SL would be a path to success, and thus we have pathfinding and experiences, but the restrictions and cost of land in SL is a formula that won't work economically for gaming, which I would think would be obvious with very few calculations: maximum 50 players in a sim at a time, sim costs $300 a month to maintain, plus other running costs, development costs, servers for backends etc... how can that ever make any sense for anyone for a game? Sansar wasn't the answer either, because there are better alternatives already available. It's only looking at SL as a virtual world that you can begin to understand who the audience is, and what they are doing with it.

My major complaint over the past 15 years has always been the lack of management in the company, not the wrong management. The loss of the Mentors is something I go back to again and again... the poor running and policing of the events list, the lack of any vision for those things, which have been allowed to die quietly in a corner. From my own observations, the programmers and administrators at LL do not run the show, they are subject to the foibles of the management and whatever they propose. It seemed to me that whatever stupid idea they received from on high, they ran with it, and that making any argument against those things was seen as mutiny. I have never lived or worked in America, but I am guessing that the fact that you can be fired at any time for anything makes people compliant and unlikely to point out the flaws in the plans presented by management. That's certainly how it seemed to me, anyway. When faced with a leader who demanded that we make a cel-shaded game in SL within a few weeks, no-one seemed to have the gumption to tell him, that's not a good use of SL.

(Edited to add: I wanted to elaborate on this: I mean that once you get below the decision makers, there seems to be little appetite for management in the way I understand it as a UK-based person: it seemed to me that there was just an anxious rush to put into practice whatever came down from on high. The comment about mentors is because LL simply closed the programme down instead of deciding how to manage the increase in numbers and the chatter on the mentor channels. With events, they have rules which are generally ignored and which are blatantly and flagrantly broken by many of the sex-based sims, which seem like a front for on-demand online sex services now.)

I still believe that they have lost something significant by switching to mesh uploads as the main source of new content, rather than in-world construction tools, because of the loss of collaboration and community. I guess they are seeing the new lands of Bellessaria as a success, as people are clamouring for more, but the significant advantage of double prims and an actual garden space cannot be underestimated. Had they put the same housing that they have on the old Linden homes sims on new plots with double prims and garden spaces, I think they would have been equally popular. This would be an option with the old sims, as many of the old Linden homes seem to be empty. They could simply remove the empty ones and add gardens and prims to those which are occupied. I don't expect them to do that though.

PS I'm personally very sorry to see Nyx go, as I worked with him on Linden Realms and he seemed far more intelligent and grounded than most of the Lindens I had contact with. I hope he finds somewhere which appreciates him better.
 
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Qie Niangao

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Is there an update on the layoff news here? Like how many actually are leaving LL, and of those how many are just volunteering for a buy-out rather than follow a new direction for Sansar? And how many are moving over to SL? (I've heard "several" but not from anybody in a position to know the whole picture.)

Also, this whole thread seems to assume that Sansar's plug is pulled completely, but that's not what the announcement says, and I don't see why they'd try to sugar-coat a product shutdown. It would be different if they thought they could sell-off the technology -- it's certainly not as if there are Sansar cash-flows for anybody to buy -- but who wants this technology? So isn't it more likely they really are hanging on to the idea of Sansar for hosting mass events like the EDM stuff? (There are still EDM fans, right? like in eastern Europe or somewhere?)

So if I'm reading this right, it could be the best possible direction for Sansar at this point. A whole lot of development resources were thrown at it based on doing all the stuff that was ever so complicated to do with the Second Life platform, as opposed to building features for which there was an actual market. If they've cobbled together enough functionality to support some potentially profitable use case, they'll be a lot better off satisfying those specific demands rather than stuffing the platform with half-baked features selected by how difficult they'd be to do with Second Life.
 
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Khamon

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So if I'm reading this right, it could be the best possible direction for Sansar at this point. A whole lot of development resources were thrown at it based on doing all the stuff that was ever so complicated to do with the Second Life platform, as opposed to building features for which there was an actual market. If they've cobbled together enough functionality to support some potentially profitable use case, they'll be a lot better off satisfying those specific demands rather than stuffing the platform with half-baked features selected by how difficult they'd be to do with Second Life.
I just don't know what to say. You're assessment is correct and sensible. But you've been around long enough to know that LL...well I just don't know what to say.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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My conversation with LL developers in SL have included all kinds of exciting discussions about things they're planning or hope to be working on that never came out or came out in ridiculously nerfed form. So any idea that the developers hold reins of power at LL is nuts. Wasn't fitmesh a private project that an ex-developer had to publicly shame LL into adopting?
It was not. When mesh came out many designers were complaining about its static nature, and that they needed to deliver several sizes of the some stuff. They asked LL to change that, LL did not care.

So some pissed designers started a crowdfunding campaign and hired ex-Linden Karl Stiefvater (Q Linden), the inventor of the sculpts. The campaign was successful, and he started coding something called the "parametric mesh deformer" in his cave, which took quite some time (I guess over 1 1/2 years or so).

When it was finally finished, that stuff made its way in some third party viewers, but LL was not happy with that piece of code because they had preferred some different solutions en detail. So LL scrapped that deformer, and started developing their own solution which became known as fit mesh in 2014.
 

RyanSchultz

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The names I have heard who were let go were working on Sansar: Nyx and Cara Linden. Inara Pey has told me that Landon McDowell, Chief Product Officer, still has his SL account so that I assume that means he survived the layoffs. And Garth Linden is back on the Sansar Discord in his personal account, so I assume he’s no longer with LL. We’re reading tea leaves here...
 
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I think even with mesh, in world building tools are hugely valuable if you're building something that needs to be rezzed in-world. They give you the option to effectively "sketch" something out using prims, see where you'd want say a door/window and where you need to build around some terrain issue etc. Try out shapes you're thinking of in a build, drop some of your furniture in it to test drive further and throwing on some basic textures to preview how it could look roughly. Then you can still build it as mesh and do all the fancy shading and texturing, but it's wonderful to fling prims and walk among them as you rough out an idea. Even better is when friends come round while you're playing with ideas and they can give feedback and keep you company.

The other funny thing... I could never feel comfortable building in a 3D application before I built in SL. Building with prims in a virtual world got me used to dealing with axes, rotating and understanding the shapes you could make from a basic cube or other initial prim shape. It just felt easier to relate to when I was standing beside the prims on a sandbox vs hovering a prim in the 3D Blender grid initially. I really love Blender now, but I really benefitted from the in-world tools 'desensitising' the 3D experience.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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I am pretty sure that LL could put some basic mesh creation tools into the viewer if they wanted to. Of course they would need to rethink their mesh upload fees, then, if it should work like the normal prim build tools.

Most people who tried building mesh used Blender, because it is free and the industry standard Maya 3D costs tons of money. Blender's UI is user hostile, because it is nothing like a normal Windows or MacOS application, and used to scare people away. This might have changed now with the newest release, where a revised UI was published.

Anyway most professionals would still used their preferred tools, and that is Maya/Blender/other stuff. So mesh building tools in the viewer would appeal to a more DIY type community, which clearly was not the target audience after the mesh introduction.
 

Chin Rey

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Also, this whole thread seems to assume that Sansar's plug is pulled completely, but that's not what the announcement says, and I don't see why they'd try to sugar-coat a product shutdown. It would be different if they thought they could sell-off the technology -- it's certainly not as if there are Sansar cash-flows for anybody to buy -- but who wants this technology?
They may be thinking along those lines because that's where High Fidelity is heading. Yes, it seems there is life after death for High Fidelity. It may be gone as a VR engine on its own right but some of the software solutions they came up with have caught the interest of other actors and it may that may well turn out to become a lcurative market for them. It reminds of an upstart company who tried to make a virtual ehadset back in 2002 but ended up making the most popular virtual world in history instead.

I can't see how Sansar can have any potential in that field but maybe LL has a different view.