Israeli Settler Council Admits to Systemic Ritual Sexual Abuse Of Children

detrius

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It happened in response to every case so far: from the bombing of hospitals to the murder oh Hind Rajab and the rescuers who tried to get to her, and don't get me started on the thousands of other cases when Israel's groupies ought to have STFU, but doubled down in their whataboutism, rationalising, trivialising, libel and - in the case of governments - criminalisation of anti-genocide speech and activism. So, WTF are you getting at?
So it didn't happen in this case yet.

What I'm getting at is that this is a horrific case of child abuse and you're doing your best to turn this into a discussion about the way politicians and the media are handling criticism of IsraeI.

You haven't even made a single post addressing the original topic.

Basically, you're treating any mention of Israel as an assist that lets you voice your grievances and fire off your repetitious single-line statements. I could probably post the weather forecast for Jerusalem and you'd find a way to make that about <overused nickname for British politician>. It's getting stale.

(Sorry for the post-hoc edits)
 
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Innula Zenovka

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This is the whataboutism I am talking about. The reason Jewish people are under threat directly relates to what Zionists are doing. It is not just the Israeli government, it is the behavior of Israeli settlers as well. There is a rot in Israeli society, which is a religious ethnostate on stolen land which wants even more. When you think you are the "chosen people", you think you are entitled to take whatever you want and behave however you want.

Many Jews are standing against what is happening, but this is literally a fucking genocide being committed in Gaza and now Lebanon is under attack too. The actions of Israelis are what is putting Jews around the world in harm's way. I don't want any harm to come to any Jewish people, or anyone else. I am fucking sick and tired of seeing people being slaughtered daily in Gaza and Lebanon with the help of American money and weapons because the US is strangely, stupidly beholden to Israel.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "whataboutism, " at least not from the way you use it in this context. I'm trying to warn against allowing anger at the activities of Netanyahu and his government, and of the IDF, and of Israeli settlers, to metastasise into a generalised antisemitism, and gave you an example of it happening in the UK.

Nor do I think the US is "strangely, stupidly beholden to Israel" any more than I think it has been strangely, stupidly beholden to Saddam Hussein's Iraq, the Shah's Iran, Ferdinand Marcos' Philippines, General Pinochet's Chile, MBS' Saudi Arabia or any of the other rogues gallery of regimes that have in the past enjoyed US sponsorship and support because, rightly or wrongly, the US at the time at the time thought that supporting them served the political and economic interests of the US.

It's strange only if you think the US support only the good guys. The Middle East is a vitally important area to the US's strategic interests, and the UK needs some regional superpowers to act as its proxies. For a long time, Israel has been one of them, as has been Saudi Arabia.
 

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Cristiano

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https://www.virtualverse.one/forums/posts/299607/edit
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "whataboutism, " at least not from the way you use it in this context. I'm trying to warn against allowing anger at the activities of Netanyahu and his government, and of the IDF, and of Israeli settlers, to metastasise into a generalised antisemitism, and gave you an example of it happening in the UK.

Nor do I think the US is "strangely, stupidly beholden to Israel" any more than I think it has been strangely, stupidly beholden to Saddam Hussein's Iraq, the Shah's Iran, Ferdinand Marcos' Philippines, General Pinochet's Chile, MBS' Saudi Arabia or any of the other rogues gallery of regimes that have in the past enjoyed US sponsorship and support because, rightly or wrongly, the US at the time at the time thought that supporting them served the political and economic interests of the US.

It's strange only if you think the US support only the good guys. The Middle East is a vitally important area to the US's strategic interests, and the UK needs some regional superpowers to act as its proxies. For a long time, Israel has been one of them, as has been Saudi Arabia.
I am sorry, your other examples fall pretty short. It is getting even worse:


"Mike Rogers (R-AL) and Adam Smith (D-WA) have introduced the United States-Israel Defense Technology Cooperation Initiative as part of the 2027 National Defense Authorization Act. The initiative would expand U.S. & Israel military cooperation with joint research, testing, manufacturing, and sharing technology. As well as promoting joint military training, information-sharing, network integration, and data fusion. "


Unsurprisingly, both congressmen have taken a large sum of money from good old AIPAC. So yes, America is stupidly beholden to Israel in a way it has never been in any of the examples you cited. I can't think of another country we have funnelled $400 billion to support their society at the expense of our own country. We are directly funding a genocide here. Blood is on the hands of all involved.
 

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https://www.virtualverse.one/forums/posts/299607/edit


I am sorry, your other examples fall pretty short. It is getting even worse:


"Mike Rogers (R-AL) and Adam Smith (D-WA) have introduced the United States-Israel Defense Technology Cooperation Initiative as part of the 2027 National Defense Authorization Act. The initiative would expand U.S. & Israel military cooperation with joint research, testing, manufacturing, and sharing technology. As well as promoting joint military training, information-sharing, network integration, and data fusion. "


Unsurprisingly, both congressmen have taken a large sum of money from good old AIPAC. So yes, America is stupidly beholden to Israel in a way it has never been in any of the examples you cited. I can't think of another country we have funnelled $400 billion to support their society at the expense of our own country. We are directly funding a genocide here. Blood is on the hands of all involved.
Also, she conveniently bypasses every question about the "Labour" party getting money (let's be honest, that's bribery) from the Israeli lobby. Or about Stürmer's relationship with Mandelson and, through him, Epstein, the child trafficker and Israeli agent.
 

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https://www.virtualverse.one/forums/posts/299607/edit


I am sorry, your other examples fall pretty short. It is getting even worse:


"Mike Rogers (R-AL) and Adam Smith (D-WA) have introduced the United States-Israel Defense Technology Cooperation Initiative as part of the 2027 National Defense Authorization Act. The initiative would expand U.S. & Israel military cooperation with joint research, testing, manufacturing, and sharing technology. As well as promoting joint military training, information-sharing, network integration, and data fusion. "


Unsurprisingly, both congressmen have taken a large sum of money from good old AIPAC. So yes, America is stupidly beholden to Israel in a way it has never been in any of the examples you cited. I can't think of another country we have funnelled $400 billion to support their society at the expense of our own country. We are directly funding a genocide here. Blood is on the hands of all involved.
Are you suggesting that, had, for example, Russia, Iran or North Korea outbid AIPAC these two would be pushing similar joint initiatives on behalf of those countries instead? If not, why not?

I can see why it's tempting to believe that one's country would naturally tend do the right thing, so when that doesn't happen it must be because people are being bribed or coerced not to, but I think what you describe is simply how lobbying and US politics work -- lobby groups raise lots of money to be seen to be trying to make things happen, and members of congress get paid lots of money by the lobbyists to be seen to be assisting them. The outcome hardly matters -- it's the process that counts because it puts money in the pockets of all concerned.

Does this initiative, in fact, stand any chance of success? I thought the NDA was pretty bogged down right now. If it were the US government pushing the project it might be rather different, but how does this differ from all the other performative ideas that particular members of congress push for their own purposes (e.g. bills and amendments to name everything after Trump)?

Ask yourself whether, bribed or not, any US government during the last 50 years would have seen it in the geopolitical and economic interests of the US to have Israel (and its nukes) controller by, on the one hand, either a non-aligned leftist Palestinian government (e.g. run by Fatah) or, more recently, by ethno-religious populists, aligned with Iran, like Hamas and Hezbollah, or, on the other, to remain under the control of a US-aligned Jewish government, no matter how unpleasant?

I really don't see the US's continuing support for Israel as much different from the US' support for the Shah until he was overthrown, or, after that, for Saddam while he looked like a useful counterbalance to the now hostile Islamic Republic of Iran. The US tends to work with the allies and proxies as it finds them, no matter how unpleasant and, at least in the case of Saddam, genocidal they might be.

The US has a long history of supporting genocidal regimes when it suits them. Israel is nothing new or special.

 
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Mona Eberhardt

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It's been happening since 1948. But no one wanted to believe Palestinians. No one. Even today, we are disgustingly told to focus more on what we think of Israel than what it's actually been doing and declaring it intends to do. Enough is enough.-
 

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Also, she conveniently bypasses every question about the "Labour" party getting money (let's be honest, that's bribery) from the Israeli lobby. Or about Stürmer's relationship with Mandelson and, through him, Epstein, the child trafficker and Israeli agent.
Neither you nor Cristiano have actually asked Innula any questions about these (or any other) topics in this thread.
 
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Neither you nor Cristiano have actually asked Innula any questions about these (or any other) topics in this thread.
I have been responding to what Innula has said to me. Not sure what the point is of your drive by sniping.
 
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I have been responding to what Innula has said to me. Not sure what the point is of your drive by sniping.
I don't think he meant to call you out so much as respond to what Mona said about Innula. Not trying to speak for him, but I think his comment seemed to be more directed at Mona than you.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I'm afraid I have had Mona on ignore for a while because of what seems to be the impossibility of our having a productive conversation on this topic. So I would rather not waste her time and mine by talking past each other, since that achieves nothing.
 

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I don't think he meant to call you out so much as respond to what Mona said about Innula. Not trying to speak for him, but I think his comment seemed to be more directed at Mona than you.
And I'm not taking a single syllable back. No. Not a single letter.
 

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I'm afraid I have had Mona on ignore for a while because of what seems to be the impossibility of our having a productive conversation on this topic. So I would rather not waste her time and mine by talking past each other, since that achieves nothing.
True. One side cares about whether people are being nice to genocidal criminals. The other doesn't. One side is a SLebrity and has immunity. The other isn't.-
 

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Responding to Mona's post about Tantura, it's now a car park for an Israeli beach resort. And a documentary.

It's telling the first Israeli interviewed reported Tantura was a "wealthy town, it had beautiful houses..they were living like Europeans...they women of the town used to wear beautiful clothes..."

Adnan Al Yahya, now 92, was 17 when Tantura fell to Israeli forces. He has testified in several academic and journalistic publications over the years that he and a friend were forced by soldiers to dig a grave at the site and throw dozens of bodies in.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/25/study-1948-israeli-massacre-tantura-palestinian-village-mass-graves-car-park

https://tantura.forensic-architecture.org/

https://tantura.forensic-architecture.org/
 

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Are you suggesting that, had, for example, Russia, Iran or North Korea outbid AIPAC these two would be pushing similar joint initiatives on behalf of those countries instead? If not, why not?

I can see why it's tempting to believe that one's country would naturally tend do the right thing, so when that doesn't happen it must be because people are being bribed or coerced not to, but I think what you describe is simply how lobbying and US politics work -- lobby groups raise lots of money to be seen to be trying to make things happen, and members of congress get paid lots of money by the lobbyists to be seen to be assisting them. The outcome hardly matters -- it's the process that counts because it puts money in the pockets of all concerned.

Does this initiative, in fact, stand any chance of success? I thought the NDA was pretty bogged down right now. If it were the US government pushing the project it might be rather different, but how does this differ from all the other performative ideas that particular members of congress push for their own purposes (e.g. bills and amendments to name everything after Trump)?

Ask yourself whether, bribed or not, any US government during the last 50 years would have seen it in the geopolitical and economic interests of the US to have Israel (and its nukes) controller by, on the one hand, either a non-aligned leftist Palestinian government (e.g. run by Fatah) or, more recently, by ethno-religious populists, aligned with Iran, like Hamas and Hezbollah, or, on the other, to remain under the control of a US-aligned Jewish government, no matter how unpleasant?

I really don't see the US's continuing support for Israel as much different from the US' support for the Shah until he was overthrown, or, after that, for Saddam while he looked like a useful counterbalance to the now hostile Islamic Republic of Iran. The US tends to work with the allies and proxies as it finds them, no matter how unpleasant and, at least in the case of Saddam, genocidal they might be.

The US has a long history of supporting genocidal regimes when it suits them. Israel is nothing new or special.

There is a lot to unpack here. As far as Russia, Trump has certainly shown himself to be quite the puppet for Putin, and a lot on the right are much more supportive of Russia than of Ukraine. I don't think there is any kind of comparable situation where both houses of Congress and the president have taken insanely large amounts of money from one foreign lobby group, and this can be demonstrably shown to result in specific policy and actions in support of that country, often to the detriment of our own country and freedoms. Yes, the US has a history of meddling for its own interests to prop up terrible regimes. Israel certainly has one of the worst in the world now. However, the situation with Israel and AIPAC is wildly different.

American sentiment has shifted dramatically as our own country is falling apart and the veil has come down on what Israel has been doing. Americans do not want our tax dollars to go to prop up Israel and given Israelis a better life than we have in our own country, or for our soldiers to die for Israel. They don't want the continuous slaughter of innocent people daily (during a supposed cease fire no less).

This shift is occurring not just among Democrats who are increasingly walking away from AIPAC money, but also Republicans (usually a stalwart support group of neocons). The MAGA America First crowd is tired of Israel First as policy too. The propaganda is not working, hence the scrambling to control the narrative and strong arm politicians to keep propping up Israel or else (see: Thomas Massie). Pretending that Israel is no different is intellectually dishonest.
 

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There is a lot to unpack here. As far as Russia, Trump has certainly shown himself to be quite the puppet for Putin, and a lot on the right are much more supportive of Russia than of Ukraine. I don't think there is any kind of comparable situation where both houses of Congress and the president have taken insanely large amounts of money from one foreign lobby group, and this can be demonstrably shown to result in specific policy and actions in support of that country, often to the detriment of our own country and freedoms. Yes, the US has a history of meddling for its own interests to prop up terrible regimes. Israel certainly has one of the worst in the world now. However, the situation with Israel and AIPAC is wildly different.

American sentiment has shifted dramatically as our own country is falling apart and the veil has come down on what Israel has been doing. Americans do not want our tax dollars to go to prop up Israel and given Israelis a better life than we have in our own country, or for our soldiers to die for Israel. They don't want the continuous slaughter of innocent people daily (during a supposed cease fire no less).

This shift is occurring not just among Democrats who are increasingly walking away from AIPAC money, but also Republicans (usually a stalwart support group of neocons). The MAGA America First crowd is tired of Israel First as policy too. The propaganda is not working, hence the scrambling to control the narrative and strong arm politicians to keep propping up Israel or else (see: Thomas Massie). Pretending that Israel is no different is intellectually dishonest.
Re: Israeli meddling in other states' internal affairs, Israel is meddling currently in Greece: it certainly, as Haaretz reported and as we have every right to surmise from the revelations on Team Jorge, helped Mitsotakis get re-elected, fresh from the Predator wiretapping scandal and the Tempi train crash, the most lethal ever the the whole EU. There's also a massive propaganda apparatus in Greece, aided by Mitsotakis' Israeli backers. In Spain, I have every reason to believe the "revelations" are the result of kompromat collected by Predator (Netanyahu himself alluded to this, a few months ago) and a collaboration between the Israel-aligned Right and Far Right and Francoist (fascist) judges who the state was not allowed (due to massive reactions from the Right and Far aright) to remove.
 

Innula Zenovka

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There is a lot to unpack here. As far as Russia, Trump has certainly shown himself to be quite the puppet for Putin, and a lot on the right are much more supportive of Russia than of Ukraine. I don't think there is any kind of comparable situation where both houses of Congress and the president have taken insanely large amounts of money from one foreign lobby group, and this can be demonstrably shown to result in specific policy and actions in support of that country, often to the detriment of our own country and freedoms. Yes, the US has a history of meddling for its own interests to prop up terrible regimes. Israel certainly has one of the worst in the world now. However, the situation with Israel and AIPAC is wildly different.

American sentiment has shifted dramatically as our own country is falling apart and the veil has come down on what Israel has been doing. Americans do not want our tax dollars to go to prop up Israel and given Israelis a better life than we have in our own country, or for our soldiers to die for Israel. They don't want the continuous slaughter of innocent people daily (during a supposed cease fire no less).

This shift is occurring not just among Democrats who are increasingly walking away from AIPAC money, but also Republicans (usually a stalwart support group of neocons). The MAGA America First crowd is tired of Israel First as policy too. The propaganda is not working, hence the scrambling to control the narrative and strong arm politicians to keep propping up Israel or else (see: Thomas Massie). Pretending that Israel is no different is intellectually dishonest.
Thanks, Cris. I agree that AIPAC is a powerful lobbying organisation and that it exerts significant influence in Washington. I also agree that public opinion in the US appears to be shifting, particularly since the war in Gaza. Where I think we differ is over whether AIPAC is driving US policy or primarily reinforcing a strategic consensus that existed long before AIPAC became the force it is today.

US support for Israel did not begin with Netanyahu, nor with the modern lobbying landscape. During the Cold War, Israel became part of a broader American strategy in the Middle East. At the same time, the US cultivated relationships with conservative Arab monarchies such as Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, while the Soviet Union generally backed Arab nationalist regimes. After the Cold War ended, the geopolitical context changed, but American policymakers continued to see Israel and the Gulf monarchies as more reliable partners than the alternatives that emerged, whether Iranian-backed Shia movements or Sunni jihadist groups such as al-Qaeda and ISIS.

That doesn't mean Israel's government gets a free pass. On the contrary, I think one of the lessons of the last twenty years is that successive Israeli governments, particularly under Netanyahu, have understood how central Israel is to American strategy and have exploited that position. The question, though, is whether they are exploiting an existing strategic relationship or creating one through lobbying. I think it's largely the former.

To put it another way, if AIPAC disappeared tomorrow, I doubt the US would suddenly conclude that stability in the Eastern Med and security around the Suez Canal, freedom of navigation through the Red Sea and Gulf, and containing hostile regional powers were no longer American interests. Those considerations would still exist. The debate would be about how best to pursue them.

Where I do think you're right is that Gaza may have exposed strains in the old bipartisan consensus. Whether that leads to a fundamental change in US policy remains to be seen, but I suspect any change will be driven more by changing American assessments of their own interests than by the rise or fall of any single lobby group.

And while I'm sure you're correct that many Americans do not want their tax dollars going to Israel, do not want American soldiers drawn into conflicts in the region, and are appalled by the continuing loss of civilian life in Gaza, those same Americans are unlikely to be enthusiastic about higher fuel prices, higher food prices, supply-chain disruptions, and the broader economic consequences that will result from instability in the Gulf and Red Sea regions. Governments do not always respond to public sentiment in the way people would like. Instead, they tend to respond to what they perceive as their long-term strategic and economic interests.
 

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To put it another way, if AIPAC disappeared tomorrow, I doubt the US would suddenly conclude that stability in the Eastern Med and security around the Suez Canal, freedom of navigation through the Red Sea and Gulf, and containing hostile regional powers were no longer American interests. Those considerations would still exist. The debate would be about how best to pursue them.
None of these goals are promoted by current Israeli and US policy, and AIPAC is a big part of that.