Yay! Bakes on Mesh arrives on Monday.

Mondy Bristol

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Yea but you know, anything other than Firestorm doesn't matter. You could release these features years after Firestorm and no one would give a crap because Firestorm is all that matters.
It DOES matter because choice is important. And you know that even if there's a viewer people use a lot of the time, they use BD for taking pics, even if it's not their main viewer ^^
 
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Fionalein

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I always thought that system layer jeans, if they were textured decently looked pretty good for wearing with boots. There's still a lot of mesh designers that don't make jeans/pants for boots although the situation has got a lot better
Ever since I bought paws I am rid of all those shoe related problems. 🐈

BEST FEET RELATED INVESTMENT EVAR!
Yea but you know, anything other than Firestorm doesn't matter. You could release these features years after Firestorm and no one would give a crap because Firestorm is all that matters.
We know BD is mostly for photography folks who only care how they look in their own mirrors... my vanity however extends to how others perceive me 🙀 wicked, eh? So I really don't care how many obscure viewers adopt the feature - I will wait with using it as long until the last pre-BoM FS viewer gets blocked and the majority finally see me as I intend myself to be seen.
 
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Mondy Bristol

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We know BD is mostly for photography folks who only care how they look in their own mirrors...
People don't just take pics of themselves. BD is fantastic for landscape photography in SL :)
 

Romana

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Does she know if looks saved in HUDs of mesh heads can be used on the BoM layer (or however they manage it)?
 

Chalice Yao

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Note:
It seems you *can* put custom materials on Maitreya, but it *does* require making use of their applier system.
 

NiranV Dean

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We know BD is mostly for photography folks who only care how they look in their own mirrors... my vanity however extends to how others perceive me 🙀 wicked, eh? So I really don't care how many obscure viewers adopt the feature - I will wait with using it as long until the last pre-BoM FS viewer gets blocked and the majority finally see me as I intend myself to be seen.
And there we have it. The problem.

My vanity extends to how others perceive me as well, in fact, this should be quite obvious, what are you even making your avatar for if not to be visible for others, it's the very reason i'm not using BOM atm (besides there being absolutely no point since i hate system clothes and my avatar doesn't have them and doesn't require them either) but i was playing with the idea of using it out of spite just to appear broken for everyone on Firestorm and whenever someone asks i tell them its their Viewer (which is just the truth), that should turn their support to eleven. But then i'm like "but then others can't see my awesome avatar in its full glory...what a shame".... what a dilemma.

I mean it could be worse. BOM isn't exactly an important feature, its a nice step into the right direction but its nothing i would want everyone to hate me for. The problem remains however, we are constantly just waiting for Firestorm.
 

Beebo Brink

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I mean it could be worse. BOM isn't exactly an important feature, its a nice step into the right direction but its nothing i would want everyone to hate me for. The problem remains however, we are constantly just waiting for Firestorm.
It's not much of a problem, and I'm puzzled why you're worried about "hate"... this is about as low-pressure a feature as we could ask for.

For a period of a few weeks, some eager residents will look a little weird to Firestorm users. No big-deal and entirely temporary. It's wholly optional, and once all viewers are BoM, it's mostly invisible.

Chill.
 

NiranV Dean

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It's not much of a problem, and I'm puzzled why you're worried about "hate"... this is about as low-pressure a feature as we could ask for.

For a period of a few weeks, some eager residents will look a little weird to Firestorm users. No big-deal and entirely temporary. It's wholly optional, and once all viewers are BoM, it's mostly invisible.

Chill.
You are completely misunderstanding what i said.

I mentioned that its not an important feature but i noted that this isn't the first time nor will it be the last time we will wait for a big release.

"hate" was referring to the fact that i would be appearing as "broken" to all Firestorm users, telling them that it's a Firestorm problem, which could potentially heat their support channels (i heard they are basically burning already some days) which in turn would/could potentially draw a lot of negative attention to me (not from the users but the devs because i'm basically making their lives harder on purpose).

Also, you make it sound like unnecessarily delaying a feature "a few weeks" just like that isn't a big deal but in fact it is, not in this case but as already mentioned its a global issue. I'll say it once more, it's neither the first nor the last time this is going to happen and i think that fact is a big problem. This brings me back to my initial statement that it doesn't matter what we other devs do because in reality its all just depending on Firestorm. This can tie very much deeply into how content is created or if it is created at all. These unnecessary delays can basically ruin a lot of things... you may not care but i do.

There are quite a few really good, skilled content creators and seeing their work getting a downgrade or going to waste completely because of delays really hurts.

A good example for the above is with Orange Nova Avatars. Gordon started making a Fenra avatar years ago, when he was almost done with it and wanted to export it he ran into issues with Avastar which made him unable to export Fitted Mesh, sadly by that time the Avatar was already made to use Fitted Mesh and he didn't want to cripple his work by removing it so he delayed it to wait for Avastar to fix the export issues. Avastar had its fixes delayed to the full "remake" aka 2.0 release, which was QUITE a while after, in the meantime Gordon worked on projects without Fitted Mesh. When the issues were finally fixed he was working on a whole different avatar, which thankfully still got Fitted Mesh and Bento thanks to that, his Fenra however has been shelved seemingly forever now. If Avastar didn't delay this crucial fix for so long for no good reason this wouldn't have happened and that's just one example i got wind of, i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of other content creators (specifically body makers) were hit with similar issues.

While yes in this case you could still use it even if you can't even see it working for yourself, why would you, be honest with you, if you were to make bodies and you were in this situation would you use BOM? No, you wouldn't, you would wait until everyone (namely Firestorm) has BOM as well.

Want another example from personal experience? My snapshot floater, it got heavy flak when it got into Firestorm, their users were running rampant. I decided to go for a second round and improve it based on their feedback, sadly the improvements were brought into the 360 snapshot viewer which you guessed it, got delayed (and will stay on ice for a while) and so did my improvements which have been on ice for what?.... 2....3? years? These improvements have been in my Viewer since day one and seeing their (Firestorm users) complains still boils my blood until today because they are no longer valid, they were fixed years ago and i still get flak for it when it is no longer true. What's even worse is i got locked out of the Jira leaving me with no way of telling them that their complains have been heard and were fixed, instead they are now praising Ansariel like Jesus's second coming because he "fixed" my "mess".

I wish i could just shrug it off as "just a few weeks". Heck if any of what i heard is true we are still at least a month away from a Firestorm update (if they hold true to their 1 month QA cycle) since they just recently merged the latest LL Viewer code which had quite a few landmines in there.
 
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Cristalle

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Can we not get into a fight here? He does have a point. The slower development pace does affect things. Let's just leave it at that, I don't think it's controversial to say that.
 
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NiranV Dean

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No. We get it. You're jealous of Firestorm's numbers and resentful of the "normies" who don't acknowledge your obvious superiority. That's pretty much it.
Jealous of their numbers?

What numbers? Their userbase, that consists mostly of people with no idea how anything in SL works? Or those that come screaming because they insist on having nametags on a debug feature not meant for their eyes in the first place? Yeahah...no. I'm not jealous of them working day and night with a full multi-language support team to treat the every day booboo of their users just to get slapped with the big fat "support is a piece of shit" swatter.

Sometimes i don't give the Firestorm enough slack (or any at all for that matter) but the matter of fact is that they have a huge plate and its full to the brim with stuff to do (even if that stuff is often not exactly the best thing to do), its somewhat amazing they haven't just called it a day and told you to fuck off with the amounts of shit they get.

I'm actually quite happy Firestorm is there and is having the majority of people, that means they get the majority of shit so we don't have to. What i'm not okay with is their release cycle plan which has more holes than the plot of Twilight. Every big and small release has only been waiting on Firestorm. They are trying to get their release cycles synced with LL so they don't lag too much behind because they know that its causing trouble, yet the fail over and over at the same thing, making a release in time. This time because BOM and EEP came so close but then EEP was ... *caugh* delayed due to unknown reasons i probably don't have anything to do with... this brought the entire planned release schedule out of order and Firestorm which already had BOM and EEP merged at that point had to do extra work to make a EEP-less BOM version and even IF they had an emergency plan B and made a BOM only version they still would have had to QA it for at least a month according to their own standards. What's even more problematic is now that EEP is delayed but is once again rapidly approaching a ... less completely fucked state, Firestorm will get into trouble once again. If they release now with BOM, they will miss EEP for the next 3 months (according to their own release cycle plans), if they wait for EEP they will delay BOM probably 2 or more months. Whatever they do they are quite fucked right now and its really their own fault.

But oh well, BOM isn't that important, luckily... and EEP... after what LL did to it they can delay it as much as they like i'd rather not have it at all.
 

Bartholomew Gallacher

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Niran, your hatred for Firestorm over the years is well known and documented, also that you consider it to be bloated and a piece of crap. So stop pretending that it's different, because we simply do know better than that. Ok?

In your own words: "I have my personal reasons to hate Firestorm and i have more than tried to explain these in the past, i can't, they are too many, they sit way too deep, are super deeply inter-connecting with each other and sometimes don't even make sense, but that is not the topic here. "

You dislike the dominance of Firestorm on the TPV market? Fine, try to make it better or deal with it.

Since your own viewer cares for a niche audience and comes with your opinionated ego, which reinvents the UI every view months in such a disruptive way that most people need to relearn it anew in order to get around again, you are not the person who is going to make this happen, which by the way is perfectly fine. It's your viewer and your playground.

So deal with it, most people in Second Life do prefer the feature set and GUI of Firestorm over your product, and they've got very good reasons for it, like e.g. the builtin AO or radar which you dont't provide on purpose, or the different way your default camera works and so on.
 
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Bartholomew Gallacher

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Just take a look at his own blog; it's full of references/rants on Firestorm, just like e.g. this one:


He's banned in the Firestorm JIRA and I am pretty convinced for a good reason.
 
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Val

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I am quite puzzled as why devs should not rant at a really bad product since SL in general is horrid as a base thus building atop of it will always suck. The only viewer I loved without any issue was Nicholaz one but I somehow doubt it did not have them - just did not show them to my machine at the time.

Moving on, also not sure why pointing out that BoM will take a while to be fully accessible and make a positive change is weird as it is quite true. Avatars running around not rendered properly for most or buggering others has always been a pet peeve hence I would not use the feature for same reason. At the moment it is only useful in photography or if you sit alone at your own parcel.

Lastly Firestorm really runs in circles a lot as the releases keep adding and substracting features willy nilly and the official ones are few and sparse every couple of months. They must be dying under an avalanche of bugs needing fixing as all I ever seen done about it was to link their users a confusing wiki in response ... that tends to have no solutions (or at least not the ones that ever worked). One thing they have alongside Niran is yep - smugness as seen them be even worse at times, however from my standpoint he is a single person against all that Firestorm has a team for and he does it much better (I say so subjectively as BD runs best on my machines while Firestorm tends to crash and burn).
 
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Beebo Brink

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Moving on, also not sure why pointing out that BoM will take a while to be fully accessible and make a positive change is weird as it is quite true.
It's also true that the sky is blue and the grass is green. We've been through these transitions many times before and they're just the price we pay for using any 3rd party viewer. And more broadly, it's the price we all pay for LL ALLOWING the use of 3rd party viewers. Whenever LL makes a major change to the features in SL, other viewers will lag behind (and some will become obsolete). The only real argument is whether LL should shut down everything except the official SL viewer so we have a consistent user experience.

Personally, I'm thrilled that LL is still developing new features for the grid, because it's a sign they aren't going to shut SL down. If that means I stare at odd texture patterns on a few faces for a month or two, I can live with that. If it freaks you out, use the SL viewer. Problem solved.
 

Milly

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I have been away from my computer and off SL for about 3 weeks. I was coming back to report how I like BoM --- which I've been using on Firestorm. It's been interesting reading the posts and people's concerns about how they look to others. I stopped caring years back when I realized that I look different under different windlights and there isn't anything I could do. AND I knew of people who just used the day/night cycle and often used a face light (this was years ago) . If I remember correctly Firestorm came out with multiple attachment points before the Official viewer and people looked odd to anyone not using FS. It happens.

As for my thoughts on BoM-- I don't have a body that supports it yet but the LaQ head does and it's pretty cool. So far it's been easy to use and before BoM I was trying to apply something on my face and there was flickering. Which is so annoying and I hate it. BUT I tried the same make up on with BoM and no flickering. I am hoping that more people release system layers with appliers . I was looking at eyebrows at Izzie's and got bummed they were for Genus only BUT then I saw they had system layers in cluded and so I got them. There are several shops that I really want to buy from but they don't make for the LaQ head, I'm hoping they include layers along with appliers so I can start buying from them.

I've also used BoM and appliers together and it works. I just have to be careful of how the layers go on otherwise something ends up hiding something else. I think this is going to give people more options and options are a good thing.
 

OrinB

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My vanity extends to how others perceive me as well, in fact, this should be quite obvious, what are you even making your avatar for if not to be visible for others, it's the very reason i'm not using BOM atm (besides there being absolutely no point since i hate system clothes and my avatar doesn't have them and doesn't require them either) but i was playing with the idea of using it out of spite just to appear broken for everyone on Firestorm and whenever someone asks i tell them its their Viewer (which is just the truth), that should turn their support to eleven. But then i'm like "but then others can't see my awesome avatar in its full glory...what a shame".... what a dilemma.
WOOOHOOO! another block/mute/derender opportunity! Where can i find you to not see you?

oh btw... a rhetorical question just for the shits and giggles. I like stirring too. When you make a mac based viewer i might take a look!!! :p :p :p