Are Gachas Considered Loot Boxes (And Gambling)?

[shy poster]

You can pretty much scoop up "Rare" gacha crap on the marketplace 24/7

 

[eku zhong]

IMO if a single gacha item is a standalone fun on its own thing then it is like a gumball machine. A bit of a gamble but you'll always get something you can enjoy.
If however the other pieces in the machine are necessary to complete the experience, then it is well... I wouldn't say gambling but I wouldn't say it was a good thing either.

Imagine wanting to buy a big mac and you had to buy it from a gacha machine, with the hamburger patty being the rare.
Before long, you would have a bucketful of pickles, chopped onions and bun heels.. and no fucking burger.

 

[Nika Talaj]

Whether you have to pay for them, or you get them as gift from someone else, or you get them for an achievement or goal doesn't matter.

I think loot boxes that disperse items required to advance in a game (among other junk) are a very different case than loot boxes that only yield completely optional items, as in SL. And I think that if a game provider profits from the first type, then they are profiting from gambling built into the game goals. And that sounds like trouble in river city.

That said, I agree that SL gachas are indeed gambling. But transactions are very limited in size, SL's profit from inworld gachas is exactly the same as their profit from any inworld commerce, and they don't require anyone to play them.

If i were you i'd despise any kind of Gacha and would stay far away from them, letting them rot wherever they cam from, they are just another bad thing that somehow crept its way into Second Life to make as much money with as little effort as possible.

Verdict: AVOID.

This I agree with, particularly where the gacha contains a set of things that all together make up a build or outfit. That is indeed evil. AND ... occasionally I play a couple of throws at older gachas that do this, because with older gachas it seems that I pretty often get the rare that has an entire outfit in the same texture. Which *hangs head* is fun.

The gachas that contain only items of a single design in different textures are much less evil, but then, from a gambling point of view? They are also much less fun. SIgh.

 

[NiranV Dean]

I think loot boxes that disperse items required to advance in a game (among other junk) are a very different case than loot boxes that only yield completely optional items, as in SL. And I think that if a game provider profits from the first type, then they are profiting from gambling built into the game goals. And that sounds like trouble in river city.

It doesn't matter though if the items in said lootboxes are recommended for play, required or completely optional to continue. Junk stays junk. Items you didn't want are junk you paid for. In most if not all games loot in lootboxes is 100% optional, you can play the game and finish it without ever getting a single additional item, it just might make the game harder. So there is really no difference here, but again regardless of whether items are required or not should not change the outcome of whether these are considered lootboxes or not. Lootboxes are lootboxes because they are containers giving you random "loot" and don't allow you to buy items directly... which depending on the case we would slip into pay2win....ohboy.

 

[Marianne McCann]

Are Second Life's gachas considered loot boxes

No. Next question?

 

[Jupiter]

Gachas are a form of gambling because they involve chance and prize. Although you always get a prize, it's not necessarily the one you want and the chance of getting it next time is what prompts you to play again. I imagine that could be addictive and I think some people like that. I hate it and now I have figured out that I can go to the Marketplace and just buy the gacha item I want.

However, I don't think gachas are comparable to the loot boxes of EA's Star Wars Battlefront II because gachas are optional and don't offer any advantages.

 

[Lady Darnk Juniorette]

*throws a chair labeled "game of skill" into the convo*

 

[Leslie Trihey]

It's arguable if they can be considered gambling, at least in my opinion. They are just virtual gachapon machines. Do you consider the random toy/temp tattoo/misc/candy machine that's usually in front of walmart or something a form of gambling.

That being said, the amount of them is getting obnoxious, I've seen entire stores set up to just be gacha's. I won't play them, straight up miss me with that. If I really want something I see in a gacha I try to buy it from a reseller. I will be incredibly happy when/if this fad ends.

 

[Cristiano]

No. Next question?

Thank you for your carefully considered answer. It still doesn't address whether they could run afoul of Belgium's law, as SL does have Belgian users.

 

[Ayesha]

If someone from Belgium played gacha I suppose it could end up in court, but I think they would ultimately find it’s not the same as what they were intending to ban. The difference, as others have said, is that gacha is not required to participate in Second Life, “advance” or enjoy it for that matter. If your avatar walked around naked and the only way to purchase a shirt was to play gacha and you might find yourself with 10 pairs of shoes and no shirt, then there might be a case. But despite the proliferation of gacha, you can still buy pretty much any needed item in world or on the marketplace as a specific purchase, fully knowing what you will receive.

I rarely play gacha, but I will use the marketplace to find rare items if I want them. I have no problem with it though; people have the right to spend their money on whatever they want. SL systematically nerfs everything that is fun and profitable, so I’ve been waiting for them to ban gacha, but considering they wrecked gaming of both the gambling and skill variety, people are looking for something to do and this is what they have found. It seems like every time merchants find a way to succeed on the terrible business platform that is SL, haters have to come along and complain that they are making money. Guess what, if you kill every single way to profit in SL, it will close. I think people need to mind their own business about how others choose to spend their money.

 

[Evil String]

Imagine wanting to buy a big mac and you had to buy it from a gacha machine, with the hamburger patty being the rare.
Before long, you would have a bucketful of pickles, chopped onions and bun heels.. and no fucking burger

With my luck.... I would end up with all the pickles.

 

[Hana]

With my luck.... I would end up with all the pickles.

If you do i'll trade you my RARE burger for all of your common pickles.

 

[Cristiano]

If someone from Belgium played gacha I suppose it could end up in court, but I think they would ultimately find it’s not the same as what they were intending to ban. The difference, as others have said, is that gacha is not required to participate in Second Life, “advance” or enjoy it for that matter.

The progression aspect in BF2 was irrelevant - that is just what drew so much negative attention. Whether it is "pay 2 win" or simply cosmetic items, it is still considered gambling under their law.

Buying packs for Fifa 19 Ultimate Team could soon be illegal

"We don't believe that Fifa Ultimate Team or loot boxes are gambling," EA Sports CEO Andrew Wilson said in an earnings call earlier this year.

"Firstly, because players always receive a specified number of items in each pack, and secondly we don't provide or authorise any way to cash out or sell items or virtual currency for real money."

Belgian Minister of Justice Koen Geens said in April that several games – Counter Strike: Global Offensive, Fifa 18 and Overwatch – were in violation of the country's gaming legislation and game developers that failed to comply could face heavy fines or even prison sentences.

In comparison to the games mentioned (which offer loot boxes with cosmetic items, but no way to trade or sell them), SL not only allows you to sell and trade the items, but to cash out to RL money.

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

In most if not all games loot in lootboxes is 100% optional, you can play the game and finish it without ever getting a single additional item, it just might make the game harder.

For some people that can make the difference between being able to finish a game and not. Either because the game is actually too hard to finish, or because without the help of loot boxes the game doesn't provide enough rewards along the road to be fun after a while.

Even if you're good enough to breeze though a hardcore game without going "blow this for a joke", not everyone is in that position.

The progression aspect in BF2 was irrelevant - that is just what drew so much negative attention. Whether it is "pay 2 win" or simply cosmetic items, it is still considered gambling under their law.

Which may be true and a real problem but is completely unrelated to whether they're "loot boxes".

The title of this thread should be "Are Gachas Considered Gambling". That's the actual issue.

 

[Sid]

Gachas are gambling, but so are most bubblegum machines if you don't like all the flavors.
But it is on a totally different level, then when you go to Vegas to feed the slot machines or buy tickets for Power Ball.

 

[Bamboo Stick]

I try hard to just stay away from gacha. Once you start on one, it is very hard to stop! "just one more time, okay just one more........okay one more........" that is me anyways!

 

[Sid]

I try hard to just stay away from gacha. Once you start on one, it is very hard to stop! "just one more time, okay just one more........okay one more........" that is me anyways!

That is how it goes with many people and it explains why there are so many gacha's in the first place.
They make more money for the merchant.

 

[Spirits Rising]

Oh lovely, this topic carried over ....

Any country whose lawmakers would classify what amounts to a glorified gumball machine as gambling in the same sense as a Casino, Pay to Win game or similar .... Point blank their lawmakers need to go back through Primary School as they rather obviously learned nothing whatsoever.

They took EA to task? Great. It should have started and ended there.

 

[WolfEyes]

The progression aspect in BF2 was irrelevant - that is just what drew so much negative attention. Whether it is "pay 2 win" or simply cosmetic items, it is still considered gambling under their law.

Buying packs for Fifa 19 Ultimate Team could soon be illegal



In comparison to the games mentioned (which offer loot boxes with cosmetic items, but no way to trade or sell them), SL not only allows you to sell and trade the items, but to cash out to RL money.

Belgian Minister of Justice Koen Geens said in April that several games – Counter Strike: Global Offensive, Fifa 18 and Overwatch – were in violation of the country's gaming legislation and game developers that failed to comply could face heavy fines or even prison sentences.

I wonder how they plan to enforce the prison sentences on companies that are not based in Belgium.

Looks to me like they are trying to take Belgium laws and enforce them in other countries where they do not have jurisdiction. If we all lived in Belgium then yes, we all would be subject to Belgium laws. We don't all live in Belgium. Not all companies are based in Belgium.

People need to make up their minds. You either want international/global trade and society or you don't. You can't have it both ways. It won't work with humans.

 

[Amity Slade]

Part of the problem of what Belguim has done is that they have discovered fraudulent commerce, but are trying to regulate it as gambling instead of fraud. Though I suppose championing a gamers' right to pretend to be a virtual Jedi like she paid for does not sound as badass as challenging the scourge of organized crime. (Which is something that governments everywhere have done all the time- identity a boring/difficult-to-understand problem, and address it in terms of a sexy/more-familiar problem.)

The biggest problem with gachas is that there is no way for the consumer to know if they are fair- at least, not without hundreds or thousands of purchases to create a sample size to analyze the true odds of getting various prizes. At least the gumball machine has a glass case and a simple mechanical operation that helps someone observe what is going on. Second Life gacha machines are completely opaque, completely unregulated.

Linden Lab has absolutely no desire to regulate fraud in transactions between users. If the Lab were to ever believe that gachas were a problem, they would likely deal with it as gambling. Either they would fit it into the gambling ban, or fit it into the skill gaming exception. (Linden Lab would have to rewrite its gambling policy though to fit gachas into it- gachas do not "determine a winner.")

Assuming that gachas aren't operated fraudulently, they very much resemble trading cards. It seems difficult to try to come up with a definition of gaming that would include gachas but exclude trading cards.