Brexit.

[Veritable Quandry]

So what?

Look at the history of Europe before the EU. Look at the military, political, and economic history of Europe. If you think things were better in the Guilded Age, the Depression, or any of the wars of the last couple of centuries, then yeah, it hasn't done anything useful.

I still think that the UK made the right decision with Brexit. And I also have no problem with a Brexit without that backdrop, at all. What's wrong with borders and tariffs between countries, anyway?

The backstop is required to reinforce a bilateral agreement between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Civilized countries don't unilaterally tear up an agreement just because they feel like it (that's our job). The backstop isn't simply an EU/UK issue. It is because of a treaty between the UK and the RoI.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

When discussing with Gem you have got to take into account that she's GDR - German Democratic Republic or more simpler put Eastern Germany - born and raised, which was part of the communist area influenced by the USSR and explains a lot. She's roughly around my age, this means that she experienced her childhood and major parts of youth in the GDR, then the unification happened.

Coming back to the argument "what has the EU ever done for its people" - for example the freedom of movement, meaning living everywhere in the EU where somebody wants to, work there, or just travel there, or own houses without much hassles, which is indeed a big benefit for all.

Of course the EU is far from perfect, and while I like the idea, I disagree with some parts of its current implementation, but it is worth to be maintained, kept alive and developed further.

What always baffles me is this fixation of the UK with the back stop; this thing is there to keep the peace in Ireland alive, and as a safeguard measure in case the UK fails to negotiate something proper on time. Nobody has the intention to keep this in action longer than necessary, it is meant to be transitional. So if the UK complains about it, it means either no trust in the rest of Europe, or no trust in the own abilities to negotiate. While first thing is probably what is being used as public argument, in reality the latter is probably more true given the UK's stellar performance to far during all negotiations. Leaving alone puts enough strain on both sides, and if it becomes a reality the UK is going to experience if all those promises by the Brexiteers of a new, prospering country and wealth are going to become a reality, or not.

And if the EU wants to make an example, or not is not the point - even if the UK leaves, both sides still do need each other, so there is not much intention or need to punish the UK for leaving; on the contrary.

But of course the EU has laws, regulations and all such things, and if you decide to leave, there are consequences. And of course also in order to protect its own existence - which every supranational organisation would do - you cannot have the benefits only without the obligations coming with it. It's always been like that. This has nothing to do with punishing somebody, but with how stuff normally works.

 

[Porsupah Ree]

The Scottish Tories are preparing to back a second Brexit referendum

This doesn’t mean the Scottish Conservatives are dormant, or that Project Ruth is in abeyance. The party at Holyrood remains fully signed up to Davidson’s liberal, One Nation stance. And if there isn’t a tank on its way to London, there are certainly a few rhetorical exocets being fired. “When I look at what’s going on down south, I feel appalled and embarrassed,” one prominent MSP tells me. “I hate the English party. I’m horrified at the support for no deal being expressed by party members. I’ve stopped reading ConservativeHome.”

If this sounds like a temporary huff, the fault lines run deeper. Senior Scottish Tories believe the UK is on a trajectory to crash out of the EU without a deal, and that this could be fatal for the unity of the United Kingdom. I understand that they will back any measure that prevents no deal, and could publicly express support for a second referendum – if May’s deal can’t pass parliament – as early as next week.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I still think that the UK made the right decision with Brexit. And I also have no problem with a Brexit without that backdrop, at all. What's wrong with borders and tariffs between countries, anyway?

Eighth, it takes a lot to make me angry, but this comment is getting close to it. However, I can retain my composure by reminding myself that there's no particular reason why you should be particularly aware of the details of Irish and British history over the last 100 years.

Please, though, allow me to reassure you that in the context of the Peace Process in Northern Ireland, having a soft border between NI and the Republic of Ireland is very important indeed, at least if you want to avoid the very real risk of returning to the violence that plagued NI for the last quarter of the C20th.

That's what's wrong with a physical border between NI and the RoI. All the agreements between the various factions in NI, and the treaty between the UK and the RoI, are predicated on having an open border between the UK and the Republic.

 

[eighthdwarf Checchinato]

The backstop is required to reinforce a bilateral agreement between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Civilized countries don't unilaterally tear up an agreement just because they feel like it (that's our job). The backstop isn't simply an EU/UK issue. It is because of a treaty between the UK and the RoI.

Just a thought, admittedly maybe a bit short-sided... why not just hand Northern Ireland over to the Republic of Ireland? Wouldn't be the first time that a country was united with its neighbor...

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Just a thought, admittedly maybe a bit short-sided... why not just hand Northern Ireland over to the Republic of Ireland? Wouldn't be the first time that a country was united with its neighbor...

Because both the UK and the RoI have guaranteed that Irish reunification won't happen without the democratic consent of the people of Northern Ireland. The Unionists currently comprise the majority in NI, and are likely to for the next 15 or 20 years or so. Even then, the last thing the RoI wants is to have to cope with being united with a sizeable minority of very unhappy (and armed) NI Protestants -- unification can't happen without the NI Unionist community's consent.

 

[Porsupah Ree]

Theresa May’s Allies Are Pushing For A Second Referendum To Crush A Brexiteer “Suicide Squad”

Some of May’s closest supporters believe a second referendum is the only way through the quagmire. Last week BuzzFeed News reported that her chief of staff Gavin Barwell and chief whip Julian Smith had discussed the possibility of another referendum, but that she had so far been hostile to the idea. They believe it could be the only way to secure a mandate for her Brexit deal, arguing that voters would prefer May's offer to remaining in the EU because it ends free movement.

But there is deepening concern in the cabinet that the PM has run out of road, with ministers being urged to come together to tell her to resign or face tearing the Conservative party apart.

Most interesting that, even if May is supposedly against the idea, a second referendum has indeed reached the top level at last. The reasoning the article lays out has plausibility, given the very public rift in the Conservatives.

 

[Aribeth Zelin]

Um, Germany didn't start WWI, and as complicated a mess as it was, its hard to say any one country started it. An event started it, then it became a tangled mess of treaties between a bunch of countries with rulers who were all related.

 

[Ashiri]

To be honest, I see absolutely nothing of any worth that the EU has ever done for the people of its member states.

Peace, freedom of movement? Are they not good reasons.
Nationalistion, whether on the left or the right, is ugly.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

Why are UK reporters framing questions to EU politicians as if no deal is a "risk" European countries are taking?

 

[Argent Stonecutter]

The EU has absolutely no reason to exist, other than

fighting nationalism and holding off the next total European war for decades at least, and keeping European countries from one by one becoming vassals of the US or USSR in fact if not in name. Europe without the EU would be like the Balkans or Central America.

 

[Tigger]

I still think that the UK made the right decision with Brexit. And I also have no problem with a Brexit without that backdrop, at all. What's wrong with borders and tariffs between countries, anyway?


So what?
The EU has absolutely no reason to exist, other than to serve multinational Big Business by making it much easier for them to employ sub-companies from countries with cheaper wages, by removing border controls and tariffs and stuff that would marginally minimize the already absurd profits of Big Business and banks, by removing the (for normal people really minimal) costs of exchanging money, and so on.

To be honest, I see absolutely nothing of any worth that the EU has ever done for the people of its member states. The EU has no valid reason to exist, never had, and except for this pseudo-parliament full of business marionettes in Brussels, there is no democratic value in it either. Each and any "better deal" than a currently standing EU membership is worth pushing for.
In my opinion, the EU may fall apart entirely rather sooner than later, giving its then-former member states the chance to form a new construct if desired - let's say a "United States of Europe" or some similar BS - but then by the will of the vast majority of all their inhabitants only.
Although I'd rather see all the current EU members become independent of that Pseudo-Parliament there again, and return to their own former currencies, to their own businesses etc, without having anyone from a foreign country telling them what to do and which laws and regulations to make.


If I had a say, Germany would leave the EU - immediately and unilaterally, without any nonsensical compromises in favor for this Pan-European bureaucratic and power-hungry abomination - and return to the DM as soon as possible (oh, and it would leave the NATO as well, and throwing all NATO units out of Germany, while being at it).

What's wrong with it, well for one thing it puts up a border between me and my family. That's one thing that's wrong with it. One side of the border there's me, in poor health and my 80 yr old mother, on the other side of it is my brother and his family. If I should die before my mother - quite likely - she will be alone and isolated here, unlikely to be able to join my brothers family and my brother would then be faced with the choice of returning to the UK and probably losing his right to live and run his business in spain or abandoning his mother.

As for the rest of it, I can't be arsed to type out a big list so here's a picture

 

[Chin Rey]

In my opinion, they should just let the UK leave the EU, under the UK's own conditions.

They can. It's called "Hard Brexit" and that option is still on the table.

 

[Luisa Land]

[QUOTE="Innula Zenovka, 1" However, I can retain my composure by reminding myself that there's no particular reason why you should be particularly aware of the details of Irish and British history over the last 100 years.
[/QUOTE]


no, its not a shame to have poor knowlege concerning international relations, economic treaties and political history.
But what makes angry -at least me- is that this lack of knowledge is tried to substitute by pure ideology. slogans written here with total conviction:
for example eight's original soundtrack ".To be honest, I see absolutely nothing of any worth that the EU has ever done for the people of its member states. ""
but no clue what certain aspects of brexit realy mean for the daily life of large groups of people

 

[detrius]

To be honest, I see absolutely nothing of any worth that the EU has ever done for the people of its member states.

If I had a say, Germany would leave the EU - immediately and unilaterally, without any nonsensical compromises in favor for this Pan-European bureaucratic and power-hungry abomination - and return to the DM as soon as possible (oh, and it would leave the NATO as well, and throwing all NATO units out of Germany, while being at it).

Thankfully, my vote cancels out yours.

 

[Kara Spengler]

Will of the People™

So what is the electoral college breakdown?

 

[Kara Spengler]

I still think that the UK made the right decision with Brexit. And I also have no problem with a Brexit without that backdrop, at all. What's wrong with borders and tariffs between countries, anyway?


So what?
The EU has absolutely no reason to exist, other than to serve multinational Big Business by making it much easier for them to employ sub-companies from countries with cheaper wages, by removing border controls and tariffs and stuff that would marginally minimize the already absurd profits of Big Business and banks, by removing the (for normal people really minimal) costs of exchanging money, and so on.

To be honest, I see absolutely nothing of any worth that the EU has ever done for the people of its member states. The EU has no valid reason to exist, never had, and except for this pseudo-parliament full of business marionettes in Brussels, there is no democratic value in it either. Each and any "better deal" than a currently standing EU membership is worth pushing for.
In my opinion, the EU may fall apart entirely rather sooner than later, giving its then-former member states the chance to form a new construct if desired - let's say a "United States of Europe" or some similar BS - but then by the will of the vast majority of all their inhabitants only.
Although I'd rather see all the current EU members become independent of that Pseudo-Parliament there again, and return to their own former currencies, to their own businesses etc, without having anyone from a foreign country telling them what to do and which laws and regulations to make.


If I had a say, Germany would leave the EU - immediately and unilaterally, without any nonsensical compromises in favor for this Pan-European bureaucratic and power-hungry abomination - and return to the DM as soon as possible (oh, and it would leave the NATO as well, and throwing all NATO units out of Germany, while being at it).

You really have no bloody idea how trade works do you? Then again, I am not about to bother giving you an econ 101 course for free, go study it yourself.

 

[Kara Spengler]

Thankfully, my vote cancels out yours.

 

[Essence Lumin]

I don't have the deep knowledge some of you have about this. However there are posts in this thread which are obviously clueless.

 

[Kara Spengler]

And if the EU wants to make an example, or not is not the point - even if the UK leaves, both sides still do need each other, so there is not much intention or need to punish the UK for leaving; on the contrary..

Yes, obviously the EU does not want to make it more attractive to leave than to stay but at the end of the day they all will be dealing with each other .... it is not like the British Isles are moving. From what I have seen most countries still want to be on good terms with the UK after March.