The Israeli Goverment Has Become The Monster

[Innula Zenovka]

Jonathan Sumption, a former UK Supreme Court judge (our judges have to retire at 75 -- raised from 70 a few years ago) on Israel's war on Gaz, genocide and war crimes. He's normally regarded as a small-c conservative.

Evernote Link

While it's not the main point of the article, I think we need to be cautious when using the term "genocide" in discussions about Israel and Gaza.

First, the term carries profound historical weight. Israel was established in the wake of the Holocaust, a systematic attempt to eradicate Europe’s Jewish population. Labeling Israel’s actions as genocide resonates deeply, not just for Israelis but for Jewish communities worldwide, regardless of the current government’s policies.

Second, genocide has a precise legal definition under international law, requiring clear evidence of intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a specific national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

This is a high standard to meet, both legally and factually, which explains why few cases are officially recognized as genocide.

Overusing the term "genocide" risks overshadowing other serious violations of international humanitarian law, such as indiscriminate attacks on civilians, disproportionate force, collective punishment, or blocking humanitarian aid. These acts, which can devastate communities through destruction of homes, hospitals, or critical infrastructure, are often easier to document and address as grave war crimes.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Jonathan Sumption, a former UK Supreme Court judge (our judges have to retire at 75 -- raised from 70 a few years ago) on Israel's war on Gaz, genocide and war crimes. He's normally regarded as a small-c conservative.

Evernote Link

While it's not the main point of the article, I think we need to be cautious when using the term "genocide" in discussions about Israel and Gaza.

First, the term carries profound historical weight. Israel was established in the wake of the Holocaust, a systematic attempt to eradicate Europe’s Jewish population. Labeling Israel’s actions as genocide resonates deeply, not just for Israelis but for Jewish communities worldwide, regardless of the current government’s policies.

Second, genocide has a precise legal definition under international law, requiring clear evidence of intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a specific national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

This is a high standard to meet, both legally and factually, which explains why few cases are officially recognized as genocide.

Overusing the term "genocide" risks overshadowing other serious violations of international humanitarian law, such as indiscriminate attacks on civilians, disproportionate force, collective punishment, or blocking humanitarian aid. These acts, which can devastate communities through destruction of homes, hospitals, or critical infrastructure, are often easier to document and address as grave war crimes.

Totally agree. I believe Israel has committed a pretty vast assortment of war crimes. That's easy to prove at this point. But I do think their actions fall just a bit short of "genocide." This isn't a defense of Israel so much as just being strict about terminology. And many people were screaming that they were committing genocide the moment they started to retaliate after October 7th which showed a lot of dubious motives. I normally hate making false equivalencies between all sides, but in this case I really believe all sides of the conflict have shown very bad intent.

 

[Ellie]

Palestinian genocide and Jewish Holocaust deniers, “Two asses in the same underwear,” as an old friend once described them. An attempt to re-brand mass murder, theft of land and resources, etc.

..a 185-page report by Human Rights Watch, which concluded that Israel was committing “acts of genocide”.

The organization limited its focus to one Israeli policy: its systematic effort to deprive the population of access to water – a clear measure of intentionality, the critical yardstick for judging whether mass killing has crossed into genocide.

At a news conference, Lama Fakih, HRW’s Middle East director, said their research had proved Israel was “intentionally killing Palestinians in Gaza by denying them the water that they need to survive.

Israel had done so in four coordinated moves. It had blocked pipelines supplying water from outside Gaza. It had then cut off power to run the pumps that Gaza’s own supplies from wells and desalination plants depended on.

Next, it had destroyed the solar panels that were the backup to deal with such power cuts. And finally, it had killed crews trying to repair the supply system and aid agency staff trying to bring in water supplies.

“This is a comprehensive policy preventing people from getting any water,” HRW’s acting Israel and Palestine director, Bill Van Esveld, concluded. He added that the group had made “a very clear finding of extermination.

Another expert report finds Israel is committing genocide. The West yawns


The half a million or so most recently murdered Palestinians are beyond caring what you call their deaths, and the theft of their lands and resources.

This conflict didn't begin on October 7th, but with the Nakba in 1948, when Zionist militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages such as Tantura.


The Tantura Massacre, 22-23 May 1948

Why do I keep returning to the massacre at Tantura? Because it’s better documented than most such events, and I often recall the words of of one Zionist militia member describing how this once happy and prosperous fishing village inspired jealousy among them.

My reaction to the ongoing Palestinian slaughter is the same as my reaction to the horrors of the holocaust.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

This conflict didn't begin on October 7th, but with the Nakba in 1948, when Zionist militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages such as Tantura.

It began long before that. Before 1948 there was a substantial Jewish minority in the region and there was significant violence between Jews and Muslims. 1948 obviously marked a big escalation. I agree that a whole lot of murders are very bad regardless of terminology, but it is very factually wrong to try to suggest all was well till 1948. It could also be said this actually began in 636 AD. I don't think the discussion around ancient history is that helpful though. We all agree the current slaughter needs to stop.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Both Israel and Hamas have credibly been accused of multiple war crimes and crimes against humanity in their prosecution of the war in Gaza.

In the case of Israel, these include

• Indiscriminate attacks on civilians
• Disproportionate use of force
• Targeting civilian infrastructure
• Collective punishment and use of starvation as a method of warfare
• Forcible transfer of civilians
• Impediment of humanitarian relief
• Failure to distinguish between civilians and combatants

Additionally, there have been credible allegations that particular units of the IDF have used civilians as human shields.

The International Criminal Court seeks to prosecute various Israeli civilian and military officials for these actions,. The Prosecutor’s application for the issuance of arrest warrants against Israeli and Hamas officials include the crimes of Extermination and Persecution, which cover criminal activities that could amount to genocide but don't require proof of the same criminal intent.

The ICC's allegations against the Hamas officials Yahya Sinwa, Mohammed Diab Ibrahim al‑Masri, and Ismail Haniyeh (all of whom have either been killed in military actions or assassinated since the ICC application was issued) include extermination, murder, rape and other sexual violence, torture, and hostage taking.

Additionally, the International Court of Justice is investigating whether Israel is guilty of genocide in the Gaza Strip. It's important to remember that so far, all the ICJ has found is that the Palestinians are protected against genocide by the appropriate sections of international humanitarian and criminal law and that the actions alleged by South Africa, if proven, are capable of amounting to genocide. No findings of fact or determinations of guilt have been made, and nor will they be for several years to come.

My question is why, when Israel and the Israeli military are credibly accused of multiple war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza, people continue to accuse them of genocide, which involves a specific intent it would be very difficult to prove. I suspect the allegation is made primarily for its rhetorical force, and if that's the case, we have to accept that part of its effect, though possibly not its intention, is experienced by many Jews as uniquely painful to them as Jews, whatever their nationality or views about Israel and its government's conduct.

For that reason, I think it's best avoided. Don't accuse people or governments of crimes that would be very difficult to prove when there are other crimes, catching the same misconduct, that are a lot easier to prove.

Another question that worries me is why countries that accuse Israel of genocide against the Palestinians are not offering Palestinians refuge in their own countries. The 1938 Évian Conference, at which 32 countries deplored the Nazis' treatment of their Jewish citizens but (other than the Dominican Republic and Costa Rica) none of them were prepared to accept Jewish refugees from Germany and Austria in any significant numbers, is not generally regarded as the US' or the UK's' finest hour.

I understand the arguments various Arab and other countries advance against wanting to accept Palestinian refugees, but I'm not sure they're arguments anyone could make in good faith if they seriously believed the Palestinians in Gaza are victims of genocide and wanted to protect them. In that case, whatever the rights and wrongs of it, wouldn't common humanity require everyone to offer them refuge?

 

[Ellie]

Both Israel and Hamas have credibly been accused of multiple war crimes and crimes against humanity in their prosecution of the war in Gaza.

Not a war.

“Even those who don't believe most of the people killed in Gaza are innocent cannot deny the horrific pictures of the humanitarian disaster there. The use of the word "war" for what is going on in Gaza is misleading and distorted. What's happening in Gaza is not war. It's an unbridled Israeli assault on people who are mostly uninvolved in any activity against it.”

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2025-04-18/ty-article/.premium/the-situation-in-gaza-is-no-longer-a-war-but-an-unrestrained-assault-on-civilians/00000196-47b9-d9fb-a79f-67f997dd0000

UK surveillance aircraft/drones are supplying Israel with intelligence, and the US is sending the Israelis bombs and money, while the Palestinians are still being slaughtered, most obscenely as they gather fearfully to receive aid in shooting alleys.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Not a war.



https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2025-04-18/ty-article/.premium/the-situation-in-gaza-is-no-longer-a-war-but-an-unrestrained-assault-on-civilians/00000196-47b9-d9fb-a79f-67f997dd0000

UK surveillance aircraft/drones are supplying Israel with intelligence, and the US is sending the Israelis bombs and money, while the Palestinians are still being slaughtered, most obscenely as they gather fearfully to receive aid in shooting alleys.

It's a war to the extent that various Israeli politicians and military personnel face prosecution by the International Criminal Court for both crimes against humanity and for war crimes.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

I understand the arguments various Arab and other countries advance against wanting to accept Palestinian refugees, but I'm not sure they're arguments anyone could make in good faith if they seriously believed the Palestinians in Gaza are victims of genocide and wanted to protect them. In that case, whatever the rights and wrongs of it, wouldn't common humanity require everyone to offer them refuge?

Take for example the Kingdom of Jordan. They got about 2.3 million Palestines living there since decades by now.

Like most muslimic countries in the area Jordan's government made peace with Israel long ago in 1994.

Jordan is refusing to take new refuges because they do fear it will tip the fragille balance and inner peace in the country in favor of fighting Israel once again. Jordan's king does not want that. Palestines tried to overthrow the king once in the past in an event called Black September in 1970, so that's that.

Same goes with Egypt. Also in the background they do fear that it will give Iran more power over them, since this is one of the big backers of Hamas.

There was once a time when Palestines were welcome under their Muslimic brethren on the Arabien peninsula. Mostly as guest workers in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and so on. This time ended when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and the Palestines governing body back then supported that effort openly. Since then Palestines don't make it there any longer as guest workers, instead people from Bangladesh, India or Pakistan. These have got the advantage that they are far less fanatical than Palestines in the eyes of their hosting countries.

And that's why no muslimic country really wants to host Palestines as refugees, because they do fear they will topple the inner balance and instigate the local population against Israel. In short they are viewed as a bunch of extreme fanatics always wanting to overthrow the hosting government whoever takes them in and stirring trouble.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

France is planning to recognize Palestine as sovereign state.

"True to its historic commitment to a just and lasting peace in the Middle East, I have decided that France will recognise the state of Palestine," Macron said.
"I will make this solemn announcement at the United Nations General Assembly next September."

The news sparked anger in Israel and Washington.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu condemned the decision by one of Israel's closest allies and a G7 member, saying such a move "rewards terror and risks creating another Iranian proxy."

In a post on X, he added, "A Palestinian state in these conditions would be a launch pad to annihilate Israel — not to live in peace beside it.
"Let’s be clear: the Palestinians do not seek a state alongside Israel; they seek a state instead of Israel."
Israeli Defence Minister Israel Katz described the move as "a disgrace and a surrender to terrorism," adding that Israel would not allow the establishment of a "Palestinian entity that would harm our security, endanger our existence."
In response, U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio said the United States "strongly rejects (Macron's) plan to recognize a Palestinian state at the UN general assembly."
In a post on X, he said, "This reckless decision only serves Hamas propaganda and sets back peace. It is a slap in the face to the victims of October 7th."

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/french-plan-recognise-palestinian-state-draws-fire-israel-us-2025-07-25/

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Take for example the Kingdom of Jordan. They got about 2.3 million Palestines living there since decades by now.

Like most muslimic countries in the area Jordan's government made peace with Israel long ago in 1994.

Jordan is refusing to take new refuges because they do fear it will tip the fragille balance and inner peace in the country in favor of fighting Israel once again. Jordan's king does not want that. Palestines tried to overthrow the king once in the past in an event called Black September in 1970, so that's that.

Same goes with Egypt. Also in the background they do fear that it will give Iran more power over them, since this is one of the big backers of Hamas.

There was once a time when Palestines were welcome under their Muslimic brethren on the Arabien peninsula. Mostly as guest workers in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and so on. This time ended when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and the Palestines governing body back then supported that effort openly. Since then Palestines don't make it there any longer as guest workers, instead people from Bangladesh, India or Pakistan. These have got the advantage that they are far less fanatical than Palestines in the eyes of their hosting countries.

And that's why no muslimic country really wants to host Palestines as refugees, because they do fear they will topple the inner balance and instigate the local population against Israel. In short they are viewed as a bunch of extreme fanatics always wanting to overthrow the hosting government whoever takes them in and stirring trouble.

Thanks. I understand the reasons neighbouring Arab countries are unwilling to accept Palestinian refugees. They're very similar to the reasons Britain allowed only a limited number of German Jews to escape Nazi persecution during the 1930s, and, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the US, the UK and the other countries participating in the 1938 Évian Conference, while deploring Hitler's persecution of the Jews (which had not by then become genocidal) were unwilling to accept German Jewish refugees in any great numbers.

I wish the British and other European governments would try to organise the emergency evacuation of Palestinians to Europe (including the UK, of course), just as they welcomed Ukrainians fleeing Putin's invasion, and it infuriates me that pro-Palestinian protestors aren't agitating in any great numbers for some similar scheme instead of simply marching around shouting about "From the river to the sea," while not actually proposing any viable ways to relieve the immediate suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Emmanuel Macron hinted that a couple of Arab states is going to condemn Hamas openly and call for disarmament soon in order to progress the global acceptance of Palestine as sovereign state.

Among the states who plan to acknowledge Palestine are the UK and Germany at a later stage.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/french-official-tells-paper-arab-countries-will-condemn-hamas-trying-get-2025-07-26/

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Trying to find out more about this guy. I've tried to find a more reliable source that he really said this, but he has said some pretty nasty shit. This isn't helping allegations Israel's government is ran by right wing loons who want to commit genocide.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Trying to find out more about this guy. I've tried to find a more reliable source that he really said this, but he has said some pretty nasty shit. This isn't helping allegations Israel's government is ran by right wing loons who want to commit genocide.

The only sources I can find for the remark are Anadolu Ajansı (Turkish state-run news agency) and Middle East Monitor. According to Middle East Monitor, he said

that Israel “must find ways for Gazans that are more painful than death” to defeat them and break their morale, as the US did with Japan.

Eliyahu expressed, in statements to Israeli radio station 103 FM, that Israel must decide the battle by breaking the morale of the Palestinians in Gaza and causing them pain involving their land, destroying homes, breaking their national dream and voluntary immigration. When the presenter interrupted him, saying this was not possible, Eliyahu replied that it was, similar to what happened during the Arab Spring when large numbers of the region’s population immigrated to Germany.

Not sure that Middle East Monitor or a Turkish state-run news agency are wholly impartial and reliable sources, but I doubt they invented the remark. It's certainly in character -- at one point he was demanding that Gaza be nuked, which even Netanyahu thought was going a bit far.

Here's one of his more recent comments

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/minister-says-israel-pushing-for-gaza-to-be-wiped-out-made-jewish/

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Seven more malnutrition deaths reported in Gaza, as Hamas-run health ministry says 104 killed in 24 hours

The death toll since the start of Israel's military campaign in Gaza has risen to 60,138, the ministry says.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The Nero Effect: Are We Jews Distracted by Claims of Genocide while Judaism is Burning?

Omer Bartov and Yuval Noah Harari on Genocide and Judaism

open.substack.com

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

The Nero Effect: Are We Jews Distracted by Claims of Genocide while Judaism is Burning?

Omer Bartov and Yuval Noah Harari on Genocide and Judaism

open.substack.com

I once asked someone I casually know, an ardent Zionist, “what could Israel do that would cause you not to support it?”. He was silent for a moment before looking at me and said, “Nothing.”

Yeah.... I can't relate to that level of blind loyalty and nationalism. Anyone or anything can lose my support and it's not always possible to gain it back.

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

After seeing the video footage of starveling jewish hostages held by Hamas Netanyahu wants to escalate the war in Gaza even more.

As some diplomatic channel put it: "pushing for the release the hostages through decisive military victory, ." According to the unnamed source "an understanding is forming that Hamas is not interested in a deal. "

“I understand exactly what Hamas wants,” he said in a video released by his office. “It doesn’t want a deal. It wants to break us — with these horrifying videos, with the false horror propaganda it spreads across the world.”

The premier said he was “shocked” by “the horrifying videos” and spoke with the hostages’ families.

Apparently referring to the hand of a captor that can be seen in the video of David, Netanyahu said that as the hostages “waste away in a dungeon… the Hamas monsters surrounding them — they have thick, fleshy arms. They have everything they need to eat. They are starving them the way the Nazis starved the Jews.”

“But we will not break,” Netanyahu said, adding: “I am filled with even greater determination to free our captive sons, to eliminate Hamas, and to ensure that Gaza will never again pose a threat to Israel.”

Following Netanyahu’s statement, and in response to the Hebrew media reports about cabinet plans to expand the fighting in Gaza, the Hostages and Missing Families Forum said the premier “is leading Israel and the hostages to the abyss.”

“Netanyahu is preparing the greatest scam,” said the Forum, which represents a majority of the families of the remaining 50 hostages. “The talk, which has been heard again and again, about releasing the hostages through decisive victory, is a fraud.”

“For 22 months now the public has been sold the illusion that military pressure and intense fighting will bring the hostages back,” said the group. “Even before the draft for a comprehensive deal was written, we’re being told there is no feasibility for a deal.”

“The truth must be told: Expanding the war endangers the lives of the hostages who are at risk of imminent death. We saw the chilling images of the hostages in the tunnels, they won’t survive more long days of horror,” the group said, adding that expanding the Gaza war “is a guarantee of the failure of the century.”

“There is no victory nor any revival in it,” the group added.

PM said seeking ‘decisive military victory’ in Gaza, putting hostage families on edge

Families Forum calls reported plans to expand war a 'scam' by Netanyahu, who expresses shock at clips of skeletal captives despite reportedly having been briefed on their condition

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Ha'aretz: As Piers Morgan Said, if Palestinians Must Leave Gaza, Why Shouldn't Israelis Leave Israel?

Evernote Link

This week's crawler was Israel's ambassador to the UN, Danny Danon. In addition to the usual conduct – Morgan presenting facts while the Israeli interviewee responds with absurd denials – the ambassador took the trouble to highlight Israeli "morality."

This is not, god forbid, ethnic cleansing in Gaza, he said, but it is the right of every Palestinian to seek to leave Gaza and relocate to another country. At the conclusion of his moving remarks, he was thunderstruck by Morgan's response: "And why won't the Israelis leave Israel and allow Gazans the opportunity to live there?"

I admit, I felt the earth shaking under my feet. A British interviewer, who until just recently defended Israel with all his might, is coming back at this high-ranking Israeli by the same token. Why should Palestinians leave? Why not Israelis?

 

[Soen Eber]

I don't think so. The problem, from what I've read, is that no one wanted a war, but everyone was worried one might break out, because every major European power was nervous about at least one of the others, and Wilhelm II was thought to be a bit of a loose cannon, so everyone entered into increasingly complex defensive alliances with the intention of deterring everyone from fighting.

When Ferdinand was assasinated, most countries -- and certainly the British -- saw it as a comparatively minor incident that would soon blow over precisely because they didn't think anyone would be crazy enough to go to war over it. Even as late as June 1914 the British thought the situation in Europe was more stable than it had been for years. Then there were a catastrophic series of misjudgments on all sides.

... And also a good deal of racism on the Kaiser's part, which fueled most of his bad decisions, and "it has to be done now" because of Russia's rearnenat by the French and Russia"a constant backing down over Serbia

 

[Bartholomew Gallacher]

Netanyahu announced today that he plans to occupy all of Gaza strip, including the areas where the hostages supposedly are being held.

Netanyahu has decided on full occupation of Gaza Strip: Reports

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has decided to fully occupy the Gaza Strip, multiple reports said.

www.newsweek.com