max Game of Thrones, The Final Season

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The only thing that's changed is the method of appointing the monarch (I have an idea some historical European kingdom tried this method for a while -- Poland, I think).

This, it seems to me, is pretty much setting up future civil wars and the eventual break-up of the Six Kingdoms. Historically, the move has always been to centralise power and weaken the power of the local magnates, consolidating more and more of it in the hands of men from other backgrounds who owe their positions to the monarch (so Sam and Bron rather than the heads of the various houses), and then often into even larger political structures like the Hapsburg, Russian or Ottoman empires, and more recently supranational organisations like the EU.
The Holy Roman Empire had a College of Electors, altough the Habsburgs controlled enough seats that it became a rubber stamp for the Habsburg family order of succession. I can see a few marriage allinces turning the Westeros electors into a Stark family tool.

On the other hand, there was an odd number of electors in the Holy Roman Empire (7) and the Habsburgs were much more cohesive than the Weteros great families.
 

Noodles

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Speaking of Gendry, I was really hoping he would end up being King. Since Dany legitimized him he has the best claim to the throne behind Jon.
 
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Cristiano

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From the summary in the article I posted of the ranking of all 97 HBO series:

HBO’s adaptation of George R.R. Martin’s book series wasn’t just good and medieval, it was great and medieval. Had it not delivered a rushed and narratively wonky final season, it would’ve made a strong case for taking the throne.
 

Romana

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The fantitlement responses to this (and the responses to them), lol:
 

Innula Zenovka

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The Holy Roman Empire had a College of Electors, altough the Habsburgs controlled enough seats that it became a rubber stamp for the Habsburg family order of succession. I can see a few marriage allinces turning the Westeros electors into a Stark family tool.

On the other hand, there was an odd number of electors in the Holy Roman Empire (7) and the Habsburgs were much more cohesive than the Weteros great families.
Thanks. I'm a bit confused about how the Westeros electoral college is constituted. So, too, was Ser Davos, who wasn't sure if he had a vote or not, and I'm not sure in what capacity he was voting -- he's Jon's Hand, but the meeting was originally to be a joint trial of Tyrion and Jon, so I share his puzzlement.

Samwell appeared to have a vote, as did Ser Brienne. They later become Arch Maester and Captain of the King's Guard respectively, but presumably they were appointed to these positions by Bran after he was accepted as ruler, so their only official standing at the meeting was as members of the Stark household (which was about to secede anyway), and I don't think the heads of the other great houses brought their maesters and masters of arms with them to the meeting.

So I'm not wholly sure that the electorate is confined to the heads of great houses.

Incidentally, I note that it seems The Citadel have relaxed their requirement that Maesters be celibate or, indeed, that they're fully qualified (unless they admitted Samwell to their ranks through some special, accelerated procedure). I wonder if that applies to the King's Guard, too -- otherwise Ser Pod may find his social life somewhat hampered.

I've been thinking more generally about Westeros and, while it's clearly in many ways based on mediaeval Britain, with Essos representing continental Europe and the Narrow Sea representing the English Channel,, it also has some curious similarities with the USA, at least in that the Head of State and Government is chosen by an electoral college rather than direct election (as Samwell suggested, to general derision).

It's also far bigger than Britain, to the extent that the climate ranges from polar in the North to the arid deserts of Dorne. It now has a culturally broadly similar independent neighbour, The North, and I'm not sure what the status of the territories beyond The Wall is -- does Westeros regard them part of Westeros despite the fact the king's writ does not run there, or are they simply territories unclaimed by anyone other than the Free Folk? Is The Wall a barrier between nations or is it more like the way the Mississippi was once a boundary between the USA and the native American territories?

Dorne provides another US parallel in that, even though it's part of the Six Kingdoms, it's very much a foreign neighbour to the south in many respects, and always seemed more foreign to the rest of the Seven Kingdoms than ever did the Starks' North before Nexit. So it's not unlike Mexico in some ways.

I have to say, I feel rather sorry for the inhabitants of Naath. The Unsullied's only connection with the place, as far as I understand it, was the relationship between the late Missandei and Grey Worm, so the residents of Naath will soon be confronted with the arrival of a sizeable army, who have arrived to protect them, whether they want protecting or not, and who will presumably require lands, food and equipment to undertake this task.

Historically that situation does not bode well for the Naathians, but we shall see (or we won't rather, but we can imagine and hope for the best).

I'm not even going to start to speculate about who was crewing Arya's ship -- multi talented young woman though she obviously is, I don't see how she can sail a full-masted tall ship like that without some expert assistance with the sails, maintenance and navigation.
 
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Beebo Brink

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Season 8 started falling apart for me with Cersei's pregnancy. I could imagine a vague sort of collapsed time as characters moved about the map, except for that damn baby ticking away (supposedly) in Cersei's womb and her not even showing by the time King's Landing fell.
 

Cristalle

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Sam and Brienne are also representatives of lordly houses, and some of them pretty high ranking houses in their own right. If pardoned and I think he was, briefly, by Daenerys, Samwell was actually Lord Tarly. Brienne is the only heir to Selwyn Tarth's island in the Stormlands. Her father has no other children, so presumably when she dies, that will be the end of the line for House Tarth until another is granted the island and the name. The only one who I really question was Davos, being that the Onion Knight has no lands.

Also, I caught a glimpse of Arya's crew at one point, they were just omitted from the final shots.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Sam and Brienne are also representatives of lordly houses, and some of them pretty high ranking houses in their own right. If pardoned and I think he was, briefly, by Daenerys, Samwell was actually Lord Tarly. Brienne is the only heir to Selwyn Tarth's island in the Stormlands. Her father has no other children, so presumably when she dies, that will be the end of the line for House Tarth until another is granted the island and the name. The only one who I really question was Davos, being that the Onion Knight has no lands.

Also, I caught a glimpse of Arya's crew at one point, they were just omitted from the final shots.
Thanks. I hadn't realised about the crew.

As to the various electors, I'm not sure your comments, though helpful, completely clarify the point for me, possibly because I don't fully understand the feudal system in Westeros -- in particular, which houses are great houses and which are bannermen.

Are houses Tarly and Tarth former great houses that have fallen into desuetude, or were they bannermen to someone else, as were far more powerful houses like the Boltons and the Freys?

It was all a bit ad-hoc, obviously (though Tyrion did claim to have thought of little else while waiting to learn his fate) but Tyrion's comment that the people at the meeting were there because they were the most powerful in the Seven (at the time) Kingdoms suggest that Samwell and Brienne, at least, were there because, like Davos, they were powerful players in their own right, regardless of their house or rank.
 

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Season 8 started falling apart for me with Cersei's pregnancy. I could imagine a vague sort of collapsed time as characters moved about the map, except for that damn baby ticking away (supposedly) in Cersei's womb and her not even showing by the time King's Landing fell.
TBH - I wondered if the pregnancy was menopause or as they would say in GOT(I'm guessing), "the change". It would have been a great touch if they'd gone there considering the need to produce an heir and how she was manipulating her brothers with it.
 

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Thanks. I hadn't realised about the crew.

As to the various electors, I'm not sure your comments, though helpful, completely clarify the point for me, possibly because I don't fully understand the feudal system in Westeros -- in particular, which houses are great houses and which are bannermen.

Are houses Tarly and Tarth former great houses that have fallen into desuetude, or were they bannermen to someone else, as were far more powerful houses like the Boltons and the Freys?

It was all a bit ad-hoc, obviously (though Tyrion did claim to have thought of little else while waiting to learn his fate) but Tyrion's comment that the people at the meeting were there because they were the most powerful in the Seven (at the time) Kingdoms suggest that Samwell and Brienne, at least, were there because, like Davos, they were powerful players in their own right, regardless of their house or rank.
Really worth mentioning that in Westerosi history, Great Councils didn't always go so well as kingmakers.
 

Romana

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According to the appendix in the book, House Tarly was sworn to House Tyrell and House Tarth was sworn to House Baratheon, so, bannermen, I guess?
 

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Thanks. I hadn't realised about the crew.

As to the various electors, I'm not sure your comments, though helpful, completely clarify the point for me, possibly because I don't fully understand the feudal system in Westeros -- in particular, which houses are great houses and which are bannermen.
Here is an article


The great houses though are (were)

Starks over Winterfell and the North.

Lannisters from.Casterly Rock over the Westernlands.

Martel out of Sunspear in the south over Dorne.

The Greyjoys over the Iron Islands, which are kind of North and West off the Northlands.

Tyrell over the Reach out of Highgarden. (Now Bronn)

Baratheon over the Stormlands out of Storms End.

Arynn over the Vale.

Freys over Riverrun (Now the Tully's)
 

Innula Zenovka

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Here is an article


The great houses though are (were)

Starks over Winterfell and the North.

Lannisters from.Casterly Rock over the Westernlands.

Martel out of Sunspear in the south over Dorne.

The Greyjoys over the Iron Islands, which are kind of North and West off the Northlands.

Tyrell over the Reach out of Highgarden. (Now Bronn)

Baratheon over the Stormlands out of Storms End.

Arynn over the Vale.

Freys over Riverrun (Now the Tully's)
The identity of the great houses seems to change over time -- see


According to that article, which was also my impression, the Freys were bannermen -- very powerful ones -- of House Tully rather than a great house in their own right. After the Battle of the Trident, in Clash of Kings, the Tullys are replaced as Lords Paramount of the Trident by House Baelish (i.e. Lord Petyr) but it's completely unclear what happens later on. I assume that the Tullys, in the form of Lord Edmure, were reinstated by Daenerys at some point, presumably on the joint recommendation of Jon, Tyrion and Sansa.

However, none of this explains to me what standing Samwell and Brienne had at the meeting, since the Tarlys were apparently sworn to House Tyrell and House Tarth to the Baratheons. In a way, this is reminiscent of how the reign of the Tudors developed, particularly under Henry VIII and under Elizabeth I -- that is, the power of the old great houses (York and Lancaster, but also Norfolk and Sussex) was undermined and diminished by the crown, and "new men" were promoted, either from the lesser nobility, like Samwell and Brienne, or from the common people (Thomas Cromwell, for example, with whom Bronn has something common -- at least when it comes to background and thuggishness, though probably not charm and wit).

Lord Petyr would be a very good example of a "new man," one of the minor nobility who rose not through his family wealth and power but through his own political skills, eventually becoming "an overmighty subject" (perhaps compare Robert Devereux, second Earl of Essex, or the royal favourites of Edward II and Richard II, all of whom eventually came to sticky ends by over-reaching themselves).

I'm not completely sure what the leader of the Knights of the Vale (Yohn Royce ?) was doing there, either, since the head of House Arryn is presumably the sickly boy Robert Arryn, though maybe Ser Yohn is there as Robert's representative and guardian.
 

Cristalle

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I think it was great houses plus some leading bannermen, although it's not clear who is whom. Bronn presumably didn't have the Reach just yet so that must have been Lord Hightower, which is a Great House in its own right although not Lord Paramount of the Reach.

Either way, half of the people in that scene didn't need to be there if only Great Houses mattered. All of the houses had to be influential, I imagine, except for Davos.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Still doesn't explain what Sam's status was. He's clearly not very good at keeping his oaths, since he he swore when entering both the Night's Watch and The Citadel that he'd father no children.

However, at the same time, he also swore to own no lands, which must have prohibited his inheriting the lordship when Daenerys executed his father and his brother. So presumably the title is now defunct and the hereditary (and important) marcher lordship that goes with it is presently vacant.

But whatever capacity Sam attended in, it wasn't as the current Lord Tarly.
 

Romana

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Is Little Sam Sam's son? I thought that was the baby Gilly had when he met her.
 

Eunoli

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Gilly was pregnant at the end, however. Presumably, that will be the next Lord Tarly (though I don't see how he could marry her, so it would have to be legitimized first).