Wow, Sansar has dramatically improved

Kalel

hypnotized
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 19, 2018
Messages
236
Location
Miami,FL
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
2010
SLU Posts
1965
This means that creation tools that enable nontechnical users have to exist. Almost every major web hosting company has a simplified building tool for websites and many of them support e-commerce. SL and Minecraft have simple building tools, but they are silos. Sandbox games are silos.
Just because it's professional, it doesn't mean it's good.
Just because it's amateur, doesn't mean it's bad...Thats why these tools are popular. we live in a age which you don't have to work for it.. you can borrow code, buy a script, get it all professionally done without lifting a finger..

Taking the time to create your own stuff however has more perceived value. sure you can go out and "buy it" but i'd be more happy invite people to my private build showing off my own work that i learned on my own. that sense of pride and accomplishment can become a driving force for later on.. Be it Ikea furniture or creating your own Website.
 

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
734
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
Just because it's amateur, doesn't mean it's bad...Thats why these tools are popular. we live in a age which you don't have to work for it.. you can borrow code, buy a script, get it all professionally done without lifting a finger..

Taking the time to create your own stuff however has more perceived value. sure you can go out and "buy it" but i'd be more happy invite people to my private build showing off my own work that i learned on my own. that sense of pride and accomplishment can become a driving force for later on.. Be it Ikea furniture or creating your own Website.
If this was completely true, everyone who builds a website, or an SL region, would have to be a coder, and that’s not the case.

What’s needed in virtual world building is art ability, design ability or a clear purpose. A good build doesn’t require a coder, any more than a painting requires knowledge of paint making chemistry. It’s simply a different specialty.

By extension, good building tools allow someone to create whose skills are related to the end goal. That goal doesn’t have to be technical at all. I was using SL to run a support group. A person with a website might be doing e-commerce or a blog. Such a person might be very good at making what they sell, but nontechnical.

Blender is still too technical and if you have to be able to use it to build for your private purpose, the bar is too high for most people.

An intermediary who can create a tool that bridges the gap between the technical nitty gritty and real world applications is quite possibly in a position to make a business out of it.
 

8bit Biologist

New member
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
16
An intermediary who can create a tool that bridges the gap between the technical nitty gritty and real world applications is quite possibly in a position to make a business out of it.
Since you mentioned it..Amazon Sumerian does, imho, just that.

But back to the main point, if you are going to appeal to the masses, you need cohesive, quality areas that are designed and laid out professionally and thematically to provide utilitarian and familiar services. Not a smattering of builds that range in quality, functionality and purpose. That means either a team of really good, independent builders working together, or a centralized entity with either professionals on staff or contracting the work out to have a finished world space. Not randomness. But again, that's just my opinion, from my experience. And also, my end goal here is not to go after those already in VR - they are already going to be there. It's how to draw in mainstream users whom never considered using VR. It's a different audience.
 

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
734
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
.
Since you mentioned it..Amazon Sumerian does, imho, just that.
I don’t see this being the right tool for a non-technical user who is trying to support a RL use that is outside of their listed examples. For examples, I wouldn’t use this for trying to run a support group or set up a group virtual library, two things I can do in SL. I couldn’t recommend it to a non-technical person trying to sell furniture. I’m glad it exists, but it’s not trying to be more than it is.

But back to the main point, if you are going to appeal to the masses, you need cohesive, quality areas that are designed and laid out professionally and thematically to provide utilitarian and familiar services.
So basically, you can’t imagine the users coming up with their own use cases. We’ve seen time and time again that wide open sandboxes that are accessible to a large number of people will release levels of creativity that can’t even be predicted. There’s no reason to set the theme in advance. That’s for the end user to do.

Not a smattering of builds that range in quality, functionality and purpose.
But people love this stuff. Everything that can be modded and shown off socially has been recruited for this purpose, at some time or another. Games that go even further and support an economy? Multiple examples. Leave it to the end users to decide their use cases and customers/social followers.

That means either a team of really good, independent builders working together, or a centralized entity with either professionals on staff or contracting the work out to have a finished world space. Not randomness.
This basically describes a large project controlled by an end user for their chosen purpose. Which is fine, if you’re trying to create a game or a training simulator. But why should this utility be limited to business users in silos?

But again, that's just my opinion, from my experience. And also, my end goal here is not to go after those already in VR - they are already going to be there. It's how to draw in mainstream users whom never considered using VR. It's a different audience.
What’s been shown is that trying to second-guess what mainstream users want, very often is coming from a lack of research.

But if the end users can set their own use cases and share them socially, they are doing that for you, and far more effectively. There are many, many examples in 2D of networked, user generated content. They take off once the ease of use reaches a certain level. Done right, it’s letting the herd of cats out of the bag.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: Ryanna Enfield

Sid

Today I might do amazing things but, first coffee.
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
1,735
Location
NL
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
2009
Since you mentioned it..Amazon Sumerian does, imho, just that.

But back to the main point, if you are going to appeal to the masses, you need cohesive, quality areas that are designed and laid out professionally and thematically to provide utilitarian and familiar services. Not a smattering of builds that range in quality, functionality and purpose. That means either a team of really good, independent builders working together, or a centralized entity with either professionals on staff or contracting the work out to have a finished world space. Not randomness. But again, that's just my opinion, from my experience. And also, my end goal here is not to go after those already in VR - they are already going to be there. It's how to draw in mainstream users whom never considered using VR. It's a different audience.
Exploring is just a tiny part of a virtual world. Almost never the main reason to log in. Interaction, shopping and building myself were the main attractions in SL. And since that building got more or less out of reach because of the arrival of sculpts an mesh, I'm not that enthusiastic about SL any more and not really interested in other virtual worlds, with or without goggles.
Walking around and just look here and there is boring within 15 minutes.
 

Beebo Brink

Climate Apocalypse Alarmist
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
863
And since that building got more or less out of reach because of the arrival of sculpts an mesh, I'm not that enthusiastic about SL any more and not really interested in other virtual worlds, with or without goggles.
Building things with prims kept me engaged with SL for years. When I was no longer able to match the quality of mesh-builds, I transitioned into buying builds. They were gorgeous. I loved them. But there was nothing for me to do, once I'd admired them for a day. Like you, that was the beginning of the end for me in SL.
 

8bit Biologist

New member
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
16
Exploring is just a tiny part of a virtual world. Almost never the main reason to log in. Interaction, shopping and building myself were the main attractions in SL. And since that building got more or less out of reach because of the arrival of sculpts an mesh, I'm not that enthusiastic about SL any more and not really interested in other virtual worlds, with or without goggles.
Walking around and just look here and there is boring within 15 minutes.
Agreed =) That's why I am looking for a group to do something different than what Sinespace (user driven) or Sansar (just pretty) are doing.
 

8bit Biologist

New member
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
16
Building things with prims kept me engaged with SL for years. When I was no longer able to match the quality of mesh-builds, I transitioned into buying builds. They were gorgeous. I loved them. But there was nothing for me to do, once I'd admired them for a day. Like you, that was the beginning of the end for me in SL.
I think you hit the nail on the head. If, however, while you were there, you could have shopped for cars, or seen a therapist through that medium, or browsed through different cruise line packages or even compared TV models or car insurance...then you would have had reasons to be in the world on a regular basis. It could have possibly become part of a regular routine if the functionality was brought mainstream.
 
  • 1lolwut?
Reactions: Beebo Brink

Argent Stonecutter

Emergency Mustelid Hologram
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
777
Location
Coonspiracy Central, Noonkkot
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sep 2009
SLU Posts
20780
But back to the main point, if you are going to appeal to the masses, you need cohesive, quality areas that are designed and laid out professionally and thematically to provide utilitarian and familiar services.
What "services" are you thinking of?

Who is going to put a contemporary headset on to use services? In a few years when they're lightweight and high resolution, sure, but we're not there yet.

The point to VR is entertainment. I have yet to see a "professionally laid out" "quality area" that made me want to be there.
 

8bit Biologist

New member
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
16
There is quite a bit to unpack here so let me try to break it up:

I don’t see this being the right tool for a non-technical..
I have built in Second Life. It is easier than, say, Unity or Unreal, which I have also used. I found Sumerian easier than all for specifically building singular interactive online experiences. It is not a world so it is a bit of apples to oranges to compare it to SL but it can do things like present the user with a virtual concierge that can hear and respond in multiple languages, pull data, have animation and gestures - all for a new user. it is an impressive and fairly easy tool.

So basically, you can’t imagine the users coming up with their own use cases. We’ve seen time and time again that wide open sandboxes that are accessible to a large number of people will release levels of creativity that can’t even be predicted. There’s no reason to set the theme in advance. That’s for the end user to do.
I'm not sure what you get this from. Users will always come up with their own use cases. If your use case is ostriches in lingerie, then have at it. And if you say that that's preposterous then you obviously haven't spent enough time in SL because holy crap some of the stuff in there is weird. But if that use case has a very specific interest for the user (and specially in Second Life, the interests can be very, very specific) then it would lack the general appeal necessary for my stated goal, which is mainstream appeal. That doesn't make it wrong, just wrong under my parameters.

But people love this stuff. Everything that can be modded and shown off socially has been recruited for this purpose, at some time or another. Games that go even further and support an economy? Multiple examples. Leave it to the end users to decide their use cases and customers/social followers.
That's what you think will work and take off then advocate for that =) And if you are right and my mainstream utilitarian approach is wrong, then mea culpa. If the end result is VR/VW use by the masses, then I will be glad to have been wrong.

This basically describes a large project controlled by an end user for their chosen purpose. Which is fine, if you’re trying to create a game or a training simulator. But why should this utility be limited to business users in silos?
I don't think I was ever that specific. I think business uses will legitimize the platform with a lot of folks, as well as give users a reasons to come into the world and get familiar with the UI, get comfortable. But of course I see entertainment and social uses as well.

What’s been shown is that trying to second-guess what mainstream users want, very often is coming from a lack of research.

But if the end users can set their own use cases and share them socially, they are doing that for you, and far more effectively. There are many, many examples in 2D of networked, user generated content. They take off once the ease of use reaches a certain level. Done right, it’s letting the herd of cats out of the bag.
It would be hard to show research results for a build case that hasn't been tried yet. There are several groups trying the user generated approach and they seem to keep very modest numbers amongst a very niche crowd, according to the trends and data. I am talking about AltspaceVR, Decentraland, Sinespace, Mozilla Hubs, etc, which are some of the major players I keep tabs on as far as updates and repeated user numbers. That's why I propose a different method.
 

8bit Biologist

New member
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
16
What "services" are you thinking of?

Who is going to put a contemporary headset on to use services? In a few years when they're lightweight and high resolution, sure, but we're not there yet.

The point to VR is entertainment. I have yet to see a "professionally laid out" "quality area" that made me want to be there.
Well..everything, ideally. Short of things that simply cannot translate into a virtual environment like a massage (although to be honest, if you had a haptic glove on one end and a robot arm on the other.....

As to who is going to use it..that's hard to say since there is no reason to use it at the moment. That's why I advocate for such builds, to try to draw them into the space.

As far as the point being entertainment - I disagree that that's what virtual environments or worlds are. In fact VR is lousy for games, the bulk of them being short and repetitive (with some outstanding, well thought out exceptions). My main use has been for education both in Second Life, and with Sumerian. I see no reason why the technology needs to be hobbled with a singular purpose when it can, by it's very nature, approximate reality. In my opinion, for many uses, better than present means.
 

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
734
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
There is quite a bit to unpack here so let me try to break it up:



I have built in Second Life. It is easier than, say, Unity or Unreal, which I have also used. I found Sumerian easier than all for specifically building singular interactive online experiences. It is not a world so it is a bit of apples to oranges to compare it to SL but it can do things like present the user with a virtual concierge that can hear and respond in multiple languages, pull data, have animation and gestures - all for a new user. it is an impressive and fairly easy tool.



I'm not sure what you get this from. Users will always come up with their own use cases. If your use case is ostriches in lingerie, then have at it. And if you say that that's preposterous then you obviously haven't spent enough time in SL because holy crap some of the stuff in there is weird. But if that use case has a very specific interest for the user (and specially in Second Life, the interests can be very, very specific) then it would lack the general appeal necessary for my stated goal, which is mainstream appeal. That doesn't make it wrong, just wrong under my parameters.



That's what you think will work and take off then advocate for that =) And if you are right and my mainstream utilitarian approach is wrong, then mea culpa. If the end result is VR/VW use by the masses, then I will be glad to have been wrong.



I don't think I was ever that specific. I think business uses will legitimize the platform with a lot of folks, as well as give users a reasons to come into the world and get familiar with the UI, get comfortable. But of course I see entertainment and social uses as well.



It would be hard to show research results for a build case that hasn't been tried yet. There are several groups trying the user generated approach and they seem to keep very modest numbers amongst a very niche crowd, according to the trends and data. I am talking about AltspaceVR, Decentraland, Sinespace, Mozilla Hubs, etc, which are some of the major players I keep tabs on as far as updates and repeated user numbers. That's why I propose a different method.
Trying to second guess what the “mainstream” wants and then build only for that, has failed multiple times in a variety of settings. This is because the “mainstream” is an illusion created by TV broadcast culture and other marketing approaches that are trying to dictate tastes, rather than react to them. It works for cheeseburgers, but not for participatory worlds.

It’s much more likely that most people are in “long tail” markets and that any mainstream product has to be able to cater to almost all of them. The only way to do this, is to put the selection and marketing of use cases in the hands of the users, and then provide an enabling framework.

The average user not only is never going to be as technical as you are, he probably couldn’t follow this conversation. But he’s managed to get into Minecraft, and even SL with the right help. He manages to upload to YouTube. Etc.
 

Brenda Archer

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
734
Location
Arizona
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sept 2007
SLU Posts
12005
Well..everything, ideally. Short of things that simply cannot translate into a virtual environment like a massage (although to be honest, if you had a haptic glove on one end and a robot arm on the other.....

As to who is going to use it..that's hard to say since there is no reason to use it at the moment. That's why I advocate for such builds, to try to draw them into the space.

As far as the point being entertainment - I disagree that that's what virtual environments or worlds are. In fact VR is lousy for games, the bulk of them being short and repetitive (with some outstanding, well thought out exceptions). My main use has been for education both in Second Life, and with Sumerian. I see no reason why the technology needs to be hobbled with a singular purpose when it can, by it's very nature, approximate reality. In my opinion, for many uses, better than present means.
But wouldn’t this be an argument for letting the end user select the use case?
 

8bit Biologist

New member
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
16
But wouldn’t this be an argument for letting the end user select the use case?
Well..no. Because, again, I am targeting nonusers. The folks that have no interest in building and can't tell you between VW/VR or AR. However, they may have an interest in going car shopping without having to drive to 5 dealerships if they can do it easily and more conveniently in a virtual environment. That's a mainstream case that could turn a potential nonuser, into an user.

Now once we have convinced them to try the Kool-aid, and they like the Kool-aid, THEN maybe they decide to explore and learn how to build and get their own thing going in world. This is all about initial adoption.
 

Chin Rey

Lag fighter
Joined
Oct 28, 2018
Messages
301
Location
Norway
SL Rez
2013
But back to the main point, if you are going to appeal to the masses, you need cohesive, quality areas that are designed and laid out professionally and thematically to provide utilitarian and familiar services. Not a smattering of builds that range in quality, functionality and purpose. That means either a team of really good, independent builders working together, or a centralized entity with either professionals on staff or contracting the work out to have a finished world space.
SL has neither and it worked there. ;)

But of course, SL succeeded because it was early. A three dimensional dynamic virtual world was an experience in itself back in 2003 and there weren't many cmpetitors. Even so, I don't realy disagree with you - a few smooth, professional looking shhowcases would certainly help a lot - but they won't adress the core challenge virtual realisties face today.

When I think of the development of virtual worlds, I often compare it to aviation history.

First there was the pioneer stage when those maginificent men were trying to get their flying machines off the ground at all. For virtual realities this stage ended with the arrival of Second Life and IMVU. There was certainly still lots of room for improvements but al the basics were in place.

Next was the experience stage. Flying was something that had a great value in itself as entertainment, recreation and of course as a status symbol. This is the stage vritual realiy has been at for the last decade and a half.

Then, finally, there was the utilitarian stage. Airplanes are no big deal anymore, they're a quick and relatively cheap way to get from A to B and they also have several other practical purposes.

Virtual reality hasn't reached that stage yet and it's about time it does if it's to have much of a future. To evolve further, it needs to become more relevant to people's real lives. Shinies and more imporessive graphics won't help much there and they can even become liabilities if they also mean higher hardware requirements.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 8bit Biologist

Argent Stonecutter

Emergency Mustelid Hologram
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
777
Location
Coonspiracy Central, Noonkkot
SL Rez
2005
Joined SLU
Sep 2009
SLU Posts
20780
As to who is going to use it..that's hard to say since there is no reason to use it at the moment. That's why I advocate for such builds, to try to draw them into the space.
OK, so you're arguing from an aspirational viewpoint. You think you have a use-case that will be a killer app for VR, but it's not there yet, so you think that platforms need to work to create your use-case.

I'm talking about something that has already been proven to pull people into VW, particularly Second Life and Minecraft but also things like Little Big Planet. Building in the user's context really does seem to be a use-case that pulls people into the game. I'm saying that a VR platform that can provide this use-case will be more successful than one that can't. And I have multiple real-life examples over the past couple of decades that demonstrate this.

As far as the point being entertainment - I disagree that that's what virtual environments or worlds are. In fact VR is lousy for games
I shouldn't have to say this, but the words "games" and "entertainment" are not synonyms.


But of course, SL succeeded because it was early. A three dimensional dynamic virtual world was an experience in itself back in 2003 and there weren't many cmpetitors.
Don't forget that ActiveWorlds had almost 10 years lead time on SL. I can't find when "There" showed up because that's the worst search term ever... but I also think it was before SL.
 

Chin Rey

Lag fighter
Joined
Oct 28, 2018
Messages
301
Location
Norway
SL Rez
2013
Don't forget that ActiveWorlds had almost 10 years lead time on SL. I can't find when "There" showed up because that's the worst search term ever... but I also think it was before SL.
Yes, they were among the early pioneers. As I said, SL and IMVU weren't the beginning of cirtual reality, they makred the ned of the first stage of development.
 

Han Held

Active member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
355
Location
Anchorage
Joined SLU
September, 2010
SLU Posts
7705
It might help a bit but without in-world building SL would never have taken off, and I don't think any successor will manage it so long as it depends on Blender or equivalents.
Old and quirky as I am, I'm hardly representative ... but personally I'm not interested in anything that doesn't feature inworld building.
 

Han Held

Active member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
355
Location
Anchorage
Joined SLU
September, 2010
SLU Posts
7705
Don't forget that ActiveWorlds had almost 10 years lead time on SL. I can't find when "There" showed up because that's the worst search term ever... but I also think it was before SL.
There is a 3D online virtual world created by Will Harvey and Jeffrey Ventrella. There Inc. was founded in the spring of 1998. Closed beta began in July 2001, with various stages of beta following, and ending with an October 2003 launch date.
 
  • 1Agree
Reactions: Brenda Archer