What is the max Avatar Complexity you will Render?

What is your avatar AC limit to render AT MOST for a performance?

  • Under 50k

  • 51-75k

  • 76-100k

  • 101-125k

  • 126--150k

  • 151k-175k

  • 176-200k

  • 201-250k

  • Unlimited/maxed

  • Other, I'll post in the comments


Results are only viewable after voting.

Kalel

hypnotized
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Sep 19, 2018
122
Miami,FL
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
2010
SLU Posts
1965
#21
My older avies can get up there in cost but i'm starting to slowly swap everything out to mesh and making new avies.. deleting stuff from before 2010.

i recently changed it from 300K to unlimited cause someone wasn't loading and i was curious to what they had on. only 2 instances where i've run into someone who has broken the limit. they were decked out from head to toe.

current computer i have i built 2 years ago..still runs everything high =)
 

Fauve Aeon

🌽🐍Mostly Jellicle...🐍🌽
Oct 29, 2018
225
SL, Kitely, IMVU
SL Rez
2008
Joined SLU
Not sure of date/postcount
#22
I really haven't been anywhere where the attire or costumes are essential to the experience. Maybe I'm missing out!
I think in dance performances, you’d be missing out on some things. Also, when I don’t have people fully rendered, their movements are more jerky and sluggish.
 

Bea McMahon

Sister Jazz
Sep 23, 2018
124
Detroit, Mi.
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
2007
SLU Posts
22796
#23
As a general rule, if I am out shopping or working in a club, and somebody that I do not know is a jelly doll - too bad, so sad, they stay that way. Friends - OK, I will render them.
Since I don't go to costume destinations, I just assume these people are wearing primmy (and possibly blingy) jewelry. hair, or shoes.

Editing after reading a bit more.

"I checked some costumes at rehearsal tonight and they are for a piece with 3-5 dancers and individual complexity is hovering between 112k and 125k. "

Those people will render for me. I think I have it set at 150K
 
Sep 20, 2018
58
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
2011
#24
I am usually on unlimited, but if I ran into performance issues at such an event, I would probably rather derender the audience or part of them than lowering my general settings. I would want to see what the performers are wearing.
 

Mechanical

New member
Oct 21, 2018
6
SL Rez
2006
#25
I feel that Complexity is an arbitrary metric. An avatar can have a "low" complexity but still have a high demand on the limited rendering resources that all viewers have. Please contact your third party viewer developers and demand they put in options to jelly doll on texture (vram) and geometry (triangles) usage.

From my own experience, it's a regular occurrence to see avatars using over 1 million triangles, when high quality models in video games for main characters may be 100k to 120k triangles. I have also seen avatars that use 500mb or more as a common occurrence, when every last viewer can only support 2048mb of memory due to hard coded limitations.

 

EmpressOfCommunism

Too Cute for Capitalism ❤️
Sep 20, 2018
135
SL Rez
2008
Joined SLU
2015
SLU Posts
266
#26
It's usually set to unlimited but due too unrelated computer problems I'm stuck all the way down to 45 k or so. However, I do think SL is in general getting less laggy because this same computer couldn't even run SL this time last year.
 
Sep 20, 2018
166
#27
I use mostly maxed graphics settings unless I'm going to a public place. Then I will turn them way down. ...but still will usually allow for max avatar complexity unless there is a big problem.
 

Kizz

New member
Nov 7, 2018
53
#28
For a performance where there are a lot of people, and I'm getting slowdowns, I'll usually set it around 100,000, but sometimes bring it all the way down if the lag issues are bad enough. For generally going around, I keep it as unlimited.
 

Fauve Aeon

🌽🐍Mostly Jellicle...🐍🌽
Oct 29, 2018
225
SL, Kitely, IMVU
SL Rez
2008
Joined SLU
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#29
I feel that Complexity is an arbitrary metric. An avatar can have a "low" complexity but still have a high demand on the limited rendering resources that all viewers have. Please contact your third party viewer developers and demand they put in options to jelly doll on texture (vram) and geometry (triangles) usage.

From my own experience, it's a regular occurrence to see avatars using over 1 million triangles, when high quality models in video games for main characters may be 100k to 120k triangles. I have also seen avatars that use 500mb or more as a common occurrence, when every last viewer can only support 2048mb of memory due to hard coded limitations.

I need to use this viewer to test costumes! Which one is it, please?
 

Penny Patton

Graphical Moo
Sep 30, 2018
36
#30
My avatars are typically between 30k and 80k, with a handful of outfits that put me around 90-100k.

I'll adjust my draw weight cap for the situation, but I typically like to keep it around 80k. About 150k is the absolute highest I'm willing to go. I also tend to derender avatars that use more than around 150MB of VRAM.

Doing this allows me to get around 20-30fps with really nice graphics quality in most sims. (30-60fps in sims I made myself).

People get really put off if you say LL should put a hard cap on avatar complexity (and VRAM use/triangle count) but the thing is, if they put in a reasonable cap you'd still be able to look as good as the best looking avatars you've ever seen in SL, content creators would just need to care about optimization, something most of them outright ignore right now because there are no restrictions. And everyone would get massively higher FPS and way less lag to boot.

I need to use this viewer to test costumes! Which one is it, please?
There was a test fork of Firestorm with this feature a while back. I'm not sure if it's hosted anywhere still, but I know you can find the files to add this feature are still on the Firestorm Jira, but you need to know how to compile a viewer (or know someone who does).

[FIRE-21793] [PATCH] Add resource usage tools - Firestorm Bug Tracker

The Firestorm devs turned down the feature. Niran's Black Dragon has a similar feature but it's VRAM accounting seems off, and it's lacking the jelly doll and inspection functionality that lets you derender other avatars automatically, and manage your own VRAM use.
 
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Argent Stonecutter

Emergency Mustelid Hologram
Sep 20, 2018
335
Coonspiracy Central, Noonkkot
Joined SLU
Sep 2009
SLU Posts
20780
#31
People get really put off if you say LL should put a hard cap on avatar complexity (and VRAM use/triangle count) but the thing is, if they put in a reasonable cap you'd still be able to look as good as the best looking avatars you've ever seen in SL, content creators would just need to care about optimization, something most of them outright ignore right now because there are no restrictions. And everyone would get massively higher FPS and way less lag to boot.
Red Remora hasn't updated their quad avatars for Bento yet. Many of my avatars are by creators who are long out of SL like Lucah Solvang and Evangeline Suavage, or who haven't made new or updated avatars in years like Uchi Desmoulins.

Second Life's existing catalog of third party content is a massive barrier to entry for possible competitors. They are extremely nervous about breaking it. For example, they kept the invisiprim hack working for a long long time after they introduced alpha layers, because people had existing avatars that depended on it. I don't see them basically wiping out the amount of existing content you're suggesting.
 
Sep 20, 2018
39
Somewhere Purple, Germany
Joined SLU
Dec 2007
SLU Posts
9108
#32
I usually limit to 125k complexity, with friends always rendered and other specific avatars being individually re-rendered as required. 's been working quite well for me.
I also limit to ~130MB worth of textures and 600k triangles. It makes up for the deficiencies the Avatar Complexity metric currently has.
 

Nadeja

New member
Sep 21, 2018
20
#33
When I'm amid a crowd of avatars, my limit is 50k. I see many beautiful full mesh/bento avatars in the 30-40k range and I'm typically under 50k as well. I think if everyone cares for optimization, not just for yourself, but for others too, SL would be more enjoyable for more people. But I really wish the formula was better though, as other said. For now that slider is all I can tweak. At most I manually allow the rendering of a particular avatar, e.g. the singer during a live show.
Otherwise my typical limit is 80k: that seems a reasonable margin to me, given the above.
In special cases, like some roleplay that needs lots of accessories and I need to see all the other avatars around me, I set the limit up to 200k, but I still try to stay under 80-100k myself.
 

Fauve Aeon

🌽🐍Mostly Jellicle...🐍🌽
Oct 29, 2018
225
SL, Kitely, IMVU
SL Rez
2008
Joined SLU
Not sure of date/postcount
#34
Thank you for the continued answers and the variety of viewpoints, I’m finding it helpful to read.
The backwards compatibility examples are something I deal with also in dance costuming. It’s also expensive to continually buy updated costumes when 6-8 people per role are cast. We have well over a dozen productions in the repertory. So I’m looking at the worst offenders in the costumes we have and trying to source beautiful costume and prop items that are also more economical both in render and financial costs.
 

Lewis Luminos

The Gingerbeard Man
Oct 10, 2018
47
UK
SL Rez
2008
Joined SLU
2008
SLU Posts
7158
#35
I usually keep it at unlimited because I like to see everyone, especially when I'm hosting. If someone's appearance seems to be causing lag I'll turn it down as far as I need to but that doesn't happen very often and I rarely if ever need to go below 250k.
 

Penny Patton

Graphical Moo
Sep 30, 2018
36
#36
You just keep jamming that "disagree" button, Spirits, it doesn't change how 3D rendering works.
 
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Fauve Aeon

🌽🐍Mostly Jellicle...🐍🌽
Oct 29, 2018
225
SL, Kitely, IMVU
SL Rez
2008
Joined SLU
Not sure of date/postcount
#37
Where’s the ‘interesting’ button? :cool:
Another question I have is...do you cam in on performers on a stage at all, a little, a lot? I always have so details like eyelashes are nice but I’m not sure they are terribly visible especially with stage makeup...debating, maybe if we all wear the same ones...and I truly wish jewelery/accessories did not use so many textures, it’s just not necessary with even intermediate texturing skills.
We still have some sculpted prim things, and some very dense meshes.
Anything new I’m demo-ing and trying to avoid those really dense meshes.
 

Penny Patton

Graphical Moo
Sep 30, 2018
36
#38
Second Life's existing catalog of third party content is a massive barrier to entry for possible competitors. They are extremely nervous about breaking it. For example, they kept the invisiprim hack working for a long long time after they introduced alpha layers, because people had existing avatars that depended on it. I don't see them basically wiping out the amount of existing content you're suggesting.
If they were smart about it, they wouldn't have to wipe out content to the extent you're suggesting. I don't think they should suddenly drop a restrictive cap on avatar attachments all of a sudden and out of nowhere. I have a very low opinion of the Lab, but even I don't think LL is that stupid.

First, and these are all things I've said repeatedly over the years, any cap LL introduced would not have to be all that restrictive. I've always said LL only needs to curb the worst habits. They don't have to hold SL content creators to the same standards as professional game artists, just nudge content creators gently, yet firmly, in the right direction.

Second, I don't think LL should rush into any sort of new restrictions on avatar attachments. They should ease them in in a way that doesn't disrupt the community the way you suggested would. They could easily introduce a new, server side, version of ARC where the information is easily viewable but no caps are yet enforced. They could tell people "Hey, this is what we have planned, but it's not coming for a while yet." This would give content creators time to update existing content (which would be relatively easy for content creators to do in most cases, unless they just use uploaded game/asset site rips and don't actually know ANYTHING about actually creating content, aka: content pirates/copybotters/thieves whatever you want to call them) . And when I say "giving content creators time" I'm talking YEARS. Unless LL has immediate plans to shutter SL they can afford to take the long view on this.

Finally, and this is very important yet frequently overlooked, older content typically is not the problem because as time passes, fewer and fewer people use that content. To such an extent that LL could grandfather in content made before a specific date. If they wanted to go really long term with this, they could grandfather in ALL existing content and only apply the new restraints to content going forward. Time has always been on LL's side here. Like you pointed out, they eventually phased out the invisiprim hack. Not right away, but eventually they did. And people don't use invisiprims anymore. Eventually, content gets phased out naturally.

And on top of that, not all old content is bad. I've seen people walking around in old Luskwood and Uchi Desmoulins avatars (mostly because they're freebies these days) who were still way below my ARC caps, and well within acceptable range for both polygon counts and texture use.

I get why people jump this kneejerk conclusion that adding in any sort of restrictions now would cause the content apocalypse, but it's not true. It's never been true. And you only need to spend a few minutes thinking about it to realize how much of a non-issue it really is.
 
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Argent Stonecutter

Emergency Mustelid Hologram
Sep 20, 2018
335
Coonspiracy Central, Noonkkot
Joined SLU
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#39
So you're saying that adding restrictions now wouldn't cause the apocalypse because they wouldn't actually add restrictions now. I can't really argue that point because it's basically the same one that I made... it's exactly what they did with the example I used: invisiprims. They said they were coming up with a replacement, they came up with the replacement, and then waited a few years to actually turn off invisiprims.

Now if you'd qualified your original post (here) with something to the effect of "if it was phased in gradually over several years" then I wouldn't have made my original post and you wouldn't have had to spend almost 20 lines argumentatively agreeing with me.
 

Penny Patton

Graphical Moo
Sep 30, 2018
36
#40
I've been saying the same thing consistently for years. Forgive me if it slips my mind to qualify every post I make.

Still, I also believe it was worth clarifying the point that reigning in avatar complexity doesn't have to be done in a ham-fisted manner, as it's very easy to read your post as dismissing the idea altogether. Afterall, it's not clear in your post that you were suggesting they phase in such restrictions over time, you only seemed to be equating the idea with "wiping out content" and your comment about invisiprims is phrased more like an example of how wary LL is, rather than an suggestion of way such complexity restrictions could be introduced. Especially when paired with your comment about no longer active content creators.