UnitedHealthcare CEO Assassinated In NYC

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
21,759
SLU Posts
18459

It's apparently genuine

 

GoblinCampFollower

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,001
SL Rez
2007

It's apparently genuine

Interesting. I still think it's totally absurd that he's getting federal terrorism charges. I can't see any justification for that other than just that rich CEO's count as more than regular humans. The other charges do make sense. Lots of murderers, including political ones, never got terrorism charges. It's an accidental reminder that most regular people's lives aren't seen as important.
 

Noodles

The sequel will probably be better.
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,759
Location
Illinois
SL Rez
2006
Joined SLU
04-28-2010
SLU Posts
6947
Interesting. I still think it's totally absurd that he's getting federal terrorism charges. I can't see any justification for that other than just that rich CEO's count as more than regular humans. The other charges do make sense. Lots of murderers, including political ones, never got terrorism charges. It's an accidental reminder that most regular people's lives aren't seen as important.
Yeah, basically, he must abaolutely be made an example of, lest the poors realize that they will always have a means to try to equalize things when they start to get desperate.
 

GoblinCampFollower

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,001
SL Rez
2007
Yeah, basically, he must abaolutely be made an example of, lest the poors realize that they will always have a means to try to equalize things when they start to get desperate.
Yep. Dylan Roof didn't get terrorism charges despite arguably doing a much more "Terroristic" act. ...because Roof killed poors! I think their effort to make an example out of him is mostly backfiring.

I do think Luigi has to be convicted of murder to preserve at least some semblance of law and order.... but I certainly don't consider him to be as evil as the system he struck out against. I am still hopeful his actions rally a bit more support for reform in a few direct and indirect ways.
 

Jopsy Pendragon

The White House Felon is serving Putin, not us.
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
2,640
Location
San Diego CA
SL Rez
2004
Joined SLU
2007
SLU Posts
11308
Well, keep in mind that 'the poors' aren't a protected class. Whereas billionaires, are pretty much exactly the 'protected class' that government was created to protect. For a while those protections, because they existed, were available to some of the rest of the folks as well, but we're seeing a decisive end to that under this administration.
 

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
21,759
SLU Posts
18459
Interesting. I still think it's totally absurd that he's getting federal terrorism charges. I can't see any justification for that other than just that rich CEO's count as more than regular humans. The other charges do make sense. Lots of murderers, including political ones, never got terrorism charges. It's an accidental reminder that most regular people's lives aren't seen as important.
I'm not sure it's a matter of how important the victim's life is seen as being.

The idea that motive /choice of victim/degree of premeditation should play a part in sentencing seems to me perfectly reasonable, and in the UK the statutory reasons for which a judge may consider imposing a full life order (i.e. life with no possibility of parole) are laid out here. One category for which a whole life order may be imposed is "a murder done for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause," which would seem to cover the murder of a rich CEO committed as a political protest against private health insurance, but not one committed in, for example, the course of a robbery.

In this case, it's the motive rather than the identity of the victim that determines the seriousness. If it were alleged Luigi Mangione killed Brian Thompson during the course of a mugging, there would be no question of federal charges, would there?

How to define terrorism is an interesting, and somewhat fraught, legal question. Much current anti-terrorism legislation was drawn up in the wake of 9/11, with actions committed at the behest of an identifiable organisation such as al Qaeda. It doesn't necessarily catch stochastic terrorism, where an individual with no connection with any particular terrorist group is motivated to commit acts of violence directed against particular individuals, groups or institutions by hostile public rhetoric of some sort (e.g. the Finsbury Park Mosque attacker in the UK or "lone wolf" attackers in the US).

While I don't know about the US, it's maybe worth noting that terrorism legislation in the UK isn't so much directed at actions that are already illegal (murder, causing explosions, etc) as in creating new offences, relating to support for terrorist organisations or actions preparatory to or in support of an act of terrorism that would not otherwise be illegal.

What does seem to me extraordinary -- and I understand why it's the case in the US, but it still seems extraordinary to me -- that someone should face two separate criminal proceedings, one on state charges and one on federal charges, for broadly the same set of events.
 

GoblinCampFollower

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,001
SL Rez
2007
I'm not sure it's a matter of how important the victim's life is seen as being.
It's not SUPPOSED to be a matter of how important the victim's life is seen as being. But in reality humans have biases... this of course includes the people who decide what charges to press.

The idea that motive /choice of victim/degree of premeditation should play a part in sentencing seems to me perfectly reasonable, and in the UK the statutory reasons for which a judge may consider imposing a full life order (i.e. life with no possibility of parole) are laid out here. One category for which a whole life order may be imposed is "a murder done for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause," which would seem to cover the murder of a rich CEO committed as a political protest against private health insurance, but not one committed in, for example, the course of a robbery.

In this case, it's the motive rather than the identity of the victim that determines the seriousness. If it were alleged Luigi Mangione killed Brian Thompson during the course of a mugging, there would be no question of federal charges, would there?

How to define terrorism is an interesting, and somewhat fraught, legal question. Much current anti-terrorism legislation was drawn up in the wake of 9/11, with actions committed at the behest of an identifiable organisation such as al Qaeda. It doesn't necessarily catch stochastic terrorism, where an individual with no connection with any particular terrorist group is motivated to commit acts of violence directed against particular individuals, groups or institutions by hostile public rhetoric of some sort (e.g. the Finsbury Park Mosque attacker in the UK or "lone wolf" attackers in the US).

While I don't know about the US, it's maybe worth noting that terrorism legislation in the UK isn't so much directed at actions that are already illegal (murder, causing explosions, etc) as in creating new offences, relating to support for terrorist organisations or actions preparatory to or in support of an act of terrorism that would not otherwise be illegal.

What does seem to me extraordinary -- and I understand why it's the case in the US, but it still seems extraordinary to me -- that someone should face two separate criminal proceedings, one on state charges and one on federal charges, for broadly the same set of events.
I agree with all of this. .... but it just adds to how the terrorism charge seems odd in this case. It's really not clear why Luigi is charged with terrorism when other political murders are not. I'm just saying they are being inconsistent. I'd really like to see more "official" rationale on why Luigi is a terrorist where someone like Dylan Roof is not...
 

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
21,759
SLU Posts
18459
It's not SUPPOSED to be a matter of how important the victim's life is seen as being. But in reality humans have biases... this of course includes the people who decide what charges to press.



I agree with all of this. .... but it just adds to how the terrorism charge seems odd in this case. It's really not clear why Luigi is charged with terrorism when other political murders are not. I'm just saying they are being inconsistent. I'd really like to see more "official" rationale on why Luigi is a terrorist where someone like Dylan Roof is not...
The FBI website defines domestic terrorism as
Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences, such as those of a political, religious, social, racial, or environmental nature.
It doesn't quote any statute but I assume this has some basis in federal law.

I don't think Mangione is charged with "terrorism." If I properly understand this press release, he's charged with murder, which potentially carries the death penalty, and it's alleged that his motive was terrorism, which puts him at risk of a death sentence if convicted.

Dylan Roof was charged with "hate crimes resulting in death" and "obstruction of religious exercise resulting in death," presumably because the prosecution thought those offences best described his actions and were the easiest to prove. Since he's now facing the death penalty I don't see it makes a lot of difference.

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev wasn't charged with "terrorism" either. He was convicted of a whole range of specific offences relating to setting off bombs resulting in death. Again, that's presumably because those seemed the most appropriate charges and the easiest to prove.
 

Soen Eber

Vatican mole
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
3,570
Interesting. I still think it's totally absurd that he's getting federal terrorism charges. I can't see any justification for that other than just that rich CEO's count as more than regular humans. The other charges do make sense. Lots of murderers, including political ones, never got terrorism charges. It's an accidental reminder that most regular people's lives aren't seen as important.
Even if his target was not a "protected class" of citizen, a simple textual substitution of "Health Insurance CEO" with "Advocate of homeless shelters" or "Leader of the Anti-Defamation League" (an anti-semitic organization) reveals it as a political attack. Now, some people deserve a punch in the nose, an FBI investigation, Social Media cancels ... but not targetted assassinations.
 

GoblinCampFollower

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,001
SL Rez
2007
I don't think Mangione is charged with "terrorism." If I properly understand this press release, he's charged with murder, which potentially carries the death penalty, and it's alleged that his motive was terrorism, which puts him at risk of a death sentence if convicted.
Luigi is being charged with terrorism at the federal level, separate from the state charges for murder and other things:


Your press release was just talking about state charges, I think. I admit to not being 100% sure of this since a lot of the sources I looked up were a bit inconsistent with wording.

Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences, such as those of a political, religious, social, racial, or environmental nature.
I agree that by this definition, his actions were terrorism. But by your own examples it does seem like this charge is dolled out inconsistently.

Even if his target was not a "protected class" of citizen, a simple textual substitution of "Health Insurance CEO" with "Advocate of homeless shelters" or "Leader of the Anti-Defamation League" (an anti-semitic organization) reveals it as a political attack. Now, some people deserve a punch in the nose, an FBI investigation, Social Media cancels ... but not targetted assassinations.
Never said I support the assassination. Never disputed it was a political attack either. But if political motivations in a killing makes it terrorism, then the government is extremely inconsistent. I can get you a long list of politically motivated murders that did not get "terrorism" charges. This includes Dylan Roof, and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev (he especially was a terrorist).

I'm also willing to accept this might be a new norm for how the law is applied, but it is clearly a change in how things are done.
 

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
21,759
SLU Posts
18459
Luigi is being charged with terrorism at the federal level, separate from the state charges for murder and other things:


Your press release was just talking about state charges, I think. I admit to not being 100% sure of this since a lot of the sources I looked up were a bit inconsistent with wording.



I agree that by this definition, his actions were terrorism. But by your own examples it does seem like this charge is dolled out inconsistently.
I was thinking of the federal charges, which put him at risk of the death penalty, and which I think is the greater of his worries. The state charges, it seems, include
first degree murder and murder as an act of terrorism.
which, assuming the New York definition of terrorism includes promotion a political or social cause as a motive, sounds reasonable.

The actual offence is murder. Over here, the prosecution would put the political motivation as part of their case, which would leave it open to the judge, if he or she accepted that account of the motive, to impose a whole life order. In New York it looks as if the prosecution has to persuade the jury of the motive, which is why it's changed as a specific offence.

I don't think it makes any practical difference, and to my mind the apparent discrepancy between charges in various cases is explained by the different homicide statutes in different states, and the various federal statutes.

See


for some explanation.
 
  • 1Thanks
Reactions: GoblinCampFollower

Soen Eber

Vatican mole
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
3,570
Luigi is being charged with terrorism at the federal level, separate from the state charges for murder and other things:


Your press release was just talking about state charges, I think. I admit to not being 100% sure of this since a lot of the sources I looked up were a bit inconsistent with wording.



I agree that by this definition, his actions were terrorism. But by your own examples it does seem like this charge is dolled out inconsistently.



Never said I support the assassination. Never disputed it was a political attack either. But if political motivations in a killing makes it terrorism, then the government is extremely inconsistent. I can get you a long list of politically motivated murders that did not get "terrorism" charges. This includes Dylan Roof, and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev (he especially was a terrorist).

I'm also willing to accept this might be a new norm for how the law is applied, but it is clearly a change in how things are done.
I'm having problems understanding how a political assassination is not also an act of terrorism. It seems to be baked into the very definition of terrorism.
 

GoblinCampFollower

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,001
SL Rez
2007
I'm having problems understanding how a political assassination is not also an act of terrorism. It seems to be baked into the very definition of terrorism.
I feel like you didn't read my post carefully before typing this response. I'm AGREEING that his action meets the stated definition of terrorism. But it's very clear this charge has been applied inconsistently in many other cases of "political" killings.
 

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
21,759
SLU Posts
18459
I feel like you didn't read my post carefully before typing this response. I'm AGREEING that his action meets the stated definition of terrorism. But it's very clear this charge has been applied inconsistently in many other cases of "political" killings.
Can you provide examples? I think the difference between the charges available to the prosecutor in different states, and to federal prosecutors, may have a lot to do with it.

Also, if there are are equivalent charges available with similar penalties (e.g. murder as a hate crime) the prosecutor may have thought they would be easier to prove, depending on the points to prove under the various statutes and the facts of the specific case.

ETA It will also depend on whether the suspect survives the incident to face arrest and trial in the specific case, of course.
 
Last edited:

GoblinCampFollower

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,001
SL Rez
2007
Can you provide examples? I think the difference between the charges available to the prosecutor in different states, and to federal prosecutors, may have a lot to do with it.
We've discussed a few examples on this thread already. Dylan Roof for example was charged with hate crimes but it seems like terrorism could have also fit and terrorism carries stiffer penalties (If I'm not mistaken).

You mentioned the Boston Bomber which is another example.

Loughner is another political shooter who doesn't seem to have been charged with "terrorism" that I could find.

Quintez Brown also may have fit the bill of attempting it.

If I just look up political shootings in the USA I can see we have no shortage of such cases and it doesn't seem like "terrorism" is a commonly used charge at all for shootings. The definitions you and Seon have used for "terrorism" seem broad enough to encompass basically all of them, which is why it feels so inconsistent.

Also, if there are are equivalent charges available with similar penalties (e.g. murder as a hate crime) the prosecutor may have thought they would be easier to prove, depending on the points to prove under the various statutes and the facts of the specific case.

ETA It will also depend on whether the suspect survives the incident to face arrest and trial in the specific case, of course.
Of course. I only named people who could be taken alive. That much is obvious. But can you find examples of political shootings in the USA that resemble the Luigi one that were also charged at the federal level with "terrorism?" It seems like counter examples are relatively easy to find. This charge just isn't that commonly used.
 

Innula Zenovka

Nasty Brit
VVO Supporter 🍦🎈👾❤
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
21,759
SLU Posts
18459
I think we're at cross purposes here. As far as I can tell from a very cursory search,
U.S. federal law defines domestic terrorism, but provides no penalties. Instead, the offense of domestic terrorism is state-based, and varies considerably across the country. Thirty-two states and Washington D.C. criminalize the act of domestic terrorism, while the remainder of the states do not. Most state anti-terrorism laws were enacted in the wake of the September 11 attacks, although some were enacted or amended more recently.
US federal law defines domestic terrorism thus
(5) the term "domestic terrorism" means activities that—

(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended—

(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
So in a federal court, the appropriate charge is murder, and if the prosecutor puts the case that the murder was an act of domestic terrorism -- that is, it appears to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or influence government policy, or affect the conduct of government by mass destruction, assassination or terrorism -- and the court accepts this, then the defendant may face the death penalty.

Dylann Roof was convicted of hate crimes. Specifically, according to ChatGPT,

Dylann Roof received the federal death penalty for multiple offenses related to the racially motivated shooting at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina. He was convicted of 33 federal charges, including:
  • Nine counts of hate crimes resulting in death, under 18 U.S.C. § 249.
  • Three counts of hate crimes involving an attempt to kill, under 18 U.S.C. § 249.
  • Nine counts of obstruction of religious exercise resulting in death, under 18 U.S.C. § 247.
  • Three counts of obstruction of religious exercise involving an attempt to kill and use of a dangerous weapon, under 18 U.S.C. § 247.
  • Nine counts of use of a firearm to commit murder during and in relation to a crime of violence, under 18 U.S.C. § 924(c) and (j).
The jury unanimously recommended the death sentence specifically for the religious obstruction charges under 18 U.S.C. § 247.
It could well be argued that his actions should also be considered acts of terrorism, but under the specific legislation it's a lot clearer that he was motivated by racial hostility than by an intent to intimidate or coerce anyone, so the hate crime charges seem more appropriate.

In the case of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, I see the indictment does, in fact, make reference to his terrorist actions, alleging that, among other things, he

committed the offense after substantial planning and premeditation to cause the death of a person and commit an act of terrorism (18 U.S.C. § 3592(c) (9)) (Counts One through Ten and Twelve through Fifteen);
Jared Lee Loughner was convicted under statutes like 18 U.S.C. § 351(c) for the attempted assassination of a member of Congress, and 18 U.S.C. §§ 1111 and 1114 for the murder of federal employees. Again, those statutes seen more specifically to catch his actions that does the federal anti-terrorism statute, and it must have seemed a lot easier to proved that he did, in fact, murder federal employees and attempt to assassinate a member of Congress than to establish beyond reasonable doubt his intent to intimidate the general population or to influence government policy.

In the case of Quintez Brown, federal charges relating to interference with a federally protected activity and using and discharging a firearm in relation to a crime of violence seem more appropriate, and certainly a lot easier to prove, than anything falling under the federal definition of terrorism (intent to intimidate the civilian population, influence government policy, etc) particularly since there are some questions about his mental state at the time of the offence.
 

Lexxi

meow
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
1,211
SL Rez
2007
Joined SLU
12-14-2007
SLU Posts
6381
We've discussed a few examples on this thread already. Dylan Roof for example was charged with hate crimes but it seems like terrorism could have also fit and terrorism carries stiffer penalties (If I'm not mistaken).

You mentioned the Boston Bomber which is another example.

Loughner is another political shooter who doesn't seem to have been charged with "terrorism" that I could find.

Quintez Brown also may have fit the bill of attempting it.

If I just look up political shootings in the USA I can see we have no shortage of such cases and it doesn't seem like "terrorism" is a commonly used charge at all for shootings. The definitions you and Seon have used for "terrorism" seem broad enough to encompass basically all of them, which is why it feels so inconsistent.



Of course. I only named people who could be taken alive. That much is obvious. But can you find examples of political shootings in the USA that resemble the Luigi one that were also charged at the federal level with "terrorism?" It seems like counter examples are relatively easy to find. This charge just isn't that commonly used.
As I was surprised that the Boston Bomber, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, would not have been charged with terrorism, I looked it up.



Just looking at the first one charged and convicted: First one on the list is from the terrorism statute - what charged with: 18 USC 2332a: Use of weapons of mass destruction

which is part of this statute - 18 USC Ch. 113B: TERRORISM
 

GoblinCampFollower

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,001
SL Rez
2007
As I was surprised that the Boston Bomber, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, would not have been charged with terrorism, I looked it up.



Just looking at the first one charged and convicted: First one on the list is from the terrorism statute - what charged with: 18 USC 2332a: Use of weapons of mass destruction

which is part of this statute - 18 USC Ch. 113B: TERRORISM
Thanks. Innula had previously stated he wasn't charged with terrorism and I also looked up his list of charges and didn't see it but it looks like a lot of this confusion is due to inconsistent reporting that can be easily found on the internet.

I think it's been shown on this thread that Luigi's actions were terrorism and Innula Zenovka is likely correct that some prosecutors don't go for that charge because they can already get life and/or death with more easily provable charges.

So I'm conceding the point that Luigi's terrorism charge is justified and makes sense since in this case it's probably more provable than it is in many cases. I think my confusion comes from the fact that not many murders (including political ones) get this charge as previously shown.
 
Last edited:

Bartholomew Gallacher

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
6,066
SL Rez
2002
Last edited:

detrius

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
1,972
Location
Land of bread, beer and BMW.
Joined SLU
09-30-2007
SLU Posts
10065
Meanwhile, I'm wondering how using artificial intelligence to automate (false) medical care denials isn't considered terrorism.

That's what that CEO did when he was still alive, and he was there to brag about how much money he made from it.
 
Last edited: