UnitedHealthcare CEO Assassinated In NYC

[GoblinCampFollower]

All we want is to believe

Social banditry, unidentified aerial phenomena, and the end of the inter-Trump moment

theracket.news

I think it's worth pointing out that Luigi is still very young and his own beliefs were probably very much in flux for a lot of the posts that people point to when trying to figure out his politics. We really don't know what his current beliefs are, and will hopefully find out. In any case, the legitimate anger towards companies like United doesn't become less legitimate because of personal details about Luigi or any other wacky beliefs he had or still has.

The article also meanders a fair bit and has a lot of references that arguably aren't directly relevant to the points they are trying to make.

This is the profile not of a harbinger of a Second French or Haitian Revolution but of a lone wolf, of the kind that you’re more apt to find in school shooters or on the accelerationist right.

This statement in particular is kind of glaring in that article. Trying to associate him with people who slaughter innocent children when he did nothing of the like is pretty ignorant.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I think it's worth pointing out that Luigi is still very young and his own beliefs were probably very much in flux for a lot of the posts that people point to when trying to figure out his politics. We really don't know what his current beliefs are, and will hopefully find out. In any case, the legitimate anger towards companies like United doesn't become less legitimate because of personal details about Luigi or any other wacky beliefs he had or still has.

The article also meanders a fair bit and has a lot of references that arguably aren't directly relevant to the points they are trying to make.



This statement in particular is kind of glaring in that article. Trying to associate him with people who slaughter innocent children when he did nothing of the like is pretty ignorant.

Let's just say that, as a socialist, I distrust the propaganda of the deed as a means of bringing about social change, and remain to be convinced that assassinating the CEOs of health insurance companies, no matter how emotionally satisfying it might be, is likely to prove an effective way of bringing about publicly funded health care for everyone in the US, free at the point of delivery.

If the senior executives of Health Insurance Companies are intimidated into denying fewer legitimate claims, that's all to the good, I guess, though I suspect insurance companies will find it cheaper to provide better personal security as part of their compensation package for senior executives, and possibly higher salaries to compensate for the risk of being shot at, but more generous and better behaved health insurance companies aren't really an adequate substitute for publicly funded health care for all.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Let's just say that, as a socialist, I distrust the propaganda of the deed as a means of bringing about social change, and remain to be convinced that assassinating the CEOs of health insurance companies, no matter how emotionally satisfying it might be, is likely to prove an effective way of bringing about publicly funded health care for everyone in the US, free at the point of delivery.

If the senior executives of Health Insurance Companies are intimidated into denying fewer legitimate claims, that's all to the good, I guess, though I suspect insurance companies will find it cheaper to provide better personal security as part of their compensation package for senior executives, and possibly higher salaries to compensate for the risk of being shot at, but more generous and better behaved health insurance companies aren't really an adequate substitute for publicly funded health care for all.

I agree with this. I think many regulators are in a catch-22 where they know there is a problem but also don't want to grant Luigi and his supporters such a huge victory for a shooting.

And many countries have functional multipayer systems. It can be done, but requires a heavy handed regulatory environment. It certainly isn't enough to just ask the insurers to be more generous.

 

[Noodles]

I think it's worth pointing out that Luigi is still very young and his own beliefs were probably very much in flux for a lot of the posts that people point to when trying to figure out his politics. We really don't know what his current beliefs are, and will hopefully find out. In any case, the legitimate anger towards companies like United doesn't become less legitimate because of personal details about Luigi or any other wacky beliefs he had or still has.

The powers that be are DESPERATE to make this guy not be a hero. If they can make him out to be a heavy trans advocate or a MAGA shithead, or whatever realted to politics, maybe they can get that to divide a united front of support.

Basically...

"Please return to the culture warfare and stop thinking about class warfare."

 

[Noodles]

Its also really amusing reading that article trying to "figure him out" based on his history. If anything, it suggests he may have just been open minded and interested in cultures. I have read Atlas Shrugged, its a garbage book, that does not automatically make me a raging libertarian idiot. I also own a hard copy of The Communist Manifesto, which I have never read, it was a dollar at the library sale. Its next to the Bill Clinton buography I also have not read. If Infound one for a dollar like that, I would own a copy of Mein Kamph probably, because its history, and its interesting and I would end up not reading it too.

Also, you don't have to avoid McDonald's and Starbucks because you are anti-capitalist. Something something "We live in a society."

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

The powers that be are DESPERATE to make this guy not be a hero. If they can make him out to be a heavy trans advocate or a MAGA shithead, or whatever realted to politics, maybe they can get that to divide a united front of support.

Basically...

"Please return to the culture warfare and stop thinking about class warfare."

Oh, I agree. I think his actual views were in flux and mostly kind of centrist. He wasn't clearly a left or right wing wacko. He maybe had a personal gripe with health insurers due to his back issues? But what scares the shit out of the powers that be is that sane, "normal" people do find his actions relatable....

 

[Khamon]

The powers that be are DESPERATE to make this guy not be a hero. If they can make him out to be a heavy trans advocate or a MAGA shithead, or whatever realted to politics, maybe they can get that to divide a united front of support.

Basically...

"Please return to the culture warfare and stop thinking about class warfare."

This is the ticket. It worked against Truman in the forties, Ted Kennedy in the seventies, Hillary Clinton in the nineties, and Obama most recently.

 

[Isabeau]

Yeah, doesn’t really matter if he was a Trumpist, libertarian, or extreme-leftist (whatever that is), an incel or feminist, rich or poor. It isn’t him, the person, who is being idealized.

The heartless and criminal way the insurance companies make money is what most are troubled by. Along with how those in the media and political power are largely focusing on making an example of Mangione instead of trying to help all the victims of these businesses.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Its also really amusing reading that article trying to "figure him out" based on his history. If anything, it suggests he may have just been open minded and interested in cultures. I have read Atlas Shrugged, its a garbage book, that does not automatically make me a raging libertarian idiot. I also own a hard copy of The Communist Manifesto, which I have never read, it was a dollar at the library sale. Its next to the Bill Clinton buography I also have not read. If Infound one for a dollar like that, I would own a copy of Mein Kamph probably, because its history, and its interesting and I would end up not reading it too.

Also, you don't have to avoid McDonald's and Starbucks because you are anti-capitalist. Something something "We live in a society."

I think the point is, though, that there's absolutely no reason, as I understand it, to believe he's at all left wing in his views, and there are several reasons to believe the contrary. Again, as I understand it (I don't follow such accounts myself) MAGA supporters on social media have been just as vociferous in condemning exploitative health care insurance companies as have the left.

Whatever the case, the idea that the current (or any) system of social organisation is neutral, and that any apparent abuses can be remedied by persuading or forcing greedy and exploitative bad actors to constrain their greed within more decent limits, or by ensuring that better people are in charge of the same organisations, seems to me doomed to failure.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Whatever the case, the idea that the current (or any) system of social organisation is neutral, and that any apparent abuses can be remedied by persuading or forcing greedy and exploitative bad actors to constrain their greed within more decent limits, or by ensuring that better people are in charge of the same organisations, seems to me doomed to failure.

I insist you can regulate them into compliance. The industry is largely compliant with regulations in place. The ACA did a lot of good things in this direction but was gutted by republicans into uselessness. Persuading them doesn't work, ensuring better people are in charge won't work, but you can force them. Other countries have done it.... The hard part is of course getting the new Republican government to get on board. Working class republicans are on board, as you pointed out, but republican law makers are not. The same lawmakers would give even more resistance to real single payer care.

 

[Noodles]

I insist you can regulate them into compliance. The industry is largely compliant with regulations in place. The ACA did a lot of good things in this direction but was gutted by republicans into uselessness. Persuading them doesn't work, ensuring better people are in charge won't work, but you can force them. Other countries have done it.... The hard part is of course getting the new Republican government to get on board. Working class republicans are on board, as you pointed out, but republican law makers are not. The same lawmakers would give even more resistance to real single payer care.

Yeah, regulation mostly works. It just needs to be more agressive about closing loop holes.

People against regulation like to boogeyman about companies "leaving" over too much regulation, but thats just scare tactics. The US is a huge, money rich market. What are they going to do? Move to China and beholden to that government? Europe is more regulation heavy than the US. Much of Africa and South America are too poor to be sustainable alone.

Its just scare tactics. It would take a lot of really onerous regulation to actually deive businesses completely away.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I insist you can regulate them into compliance. The industry is largely compliant with regulations in place. The ACA did a lot of good things in this direction but was gutted by republicans into uselessness. Persuading them doesn't work, ensuring better people are in charge won't work, but you can force them. Other countries have done it.... The hard part is of course getting the new Republican government to get on board. Working class republicans are on board, as you pointed out, but republican law makers are not. The same lawmakers would give even more resistance to real single payer care.

Yes, I'm sure you can regulate insurance companies into compliance with whatever legislation is in place.

You're still, though, left with a system where various for-profit enterprises (medical practitioners, health care providers, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies) provide products and services -- medical and surgical procedures and nursing care, pharmaceuticals, health care insurance -- in a highly regulated market. The goal of these various providers is to make a profit for their shareholders.

In a public health system, the goal is to provide proper health care to patients based on their need, not their ability to pay. When I need medical care from the NHS, the providers' goal is to provide me with the necessary health care, not to deliver a series of medical and other services in order to make a profit for someone.

That's the difference.

 

[Free]

All we want is to believe

Social banditry, unidentified aerial phenomena, and the end of the inter-Trump moment

theracket.news

Inter-Trump moment? Gods, I hope that doesn't mean there's an extra-Trump moment to come!

 

[Govi]

In his book Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith recognized the biggest problem with his description of the wonders of the free market system: that participants in the market -- sellers -- were morally and legally unrestrained in pursuit of more profitable deals. He argued that watchful oversight was required to ensure that the "Invisible Hand" of the market did not become handcuffed by conniving entrepreneurs maximizing profit. Putting and keeping the profit motive into an increasingly oligopolistic health industry is a very difficult health delivery system, and with increasing market power to each of the suppliers and insurers means it will continue to be increasingly expensive.

Smith did not write about a health industry, but it is akin to an industry that he did write about: roads. He argued for the notion of King's Roads: publicly funded roads, not the awful private roads that often existed then. Similarly, everyone should be free to "ride" the public health "roads" and the "crown" should ensure that it is adequately funded to keep the populace (his subjects in those days) healthy. Obviously, a healthy population is as necessary to having a robust and vibrant populace as are good roads necessary to a healthy national economy.

 

[Kamilah Hauptmann]

All we want is to believe

Social banditry, unidentified aerial phenomena, and the end of the inter-Trump moment

theracket.news

Fave line:

The specter of a Musk-and-Thiel-worshiping, Ivy League-educated data engineer wiping out a “parasite” to make way for the “good” kind of capitalist exploitation would fit very cleanly with the Hobsbawmian model.

 

[Isabeau]

Mary Gillis (@marygillis.bsky.social)

The problem with this article is that the media hasn't been very empathetic here. This isn't a case of "white man kills family" and the photo is him jet skiing. The media has actually been trying pretty hard to shame everyone who is being empathetic to him. The empathy is coming from social...

bsky.app

She’s referring to this article in the Guardian.

Media’s empathetic coverage of Luigi Mangione reveals an obsession with humanizing white male suspects

 

[WolfEyes]

a healthy population is as necessary to having a robust and vibrant populace as are good roads necessary to well as having a healthy national economy.

You do not have a healthy national economy without a healthy populace, imo.

 

[GoblinCampFollower]

Mary Gillis (@marygillis.bsky.social)

The problem with this article is that the media hasn't been very empathetic here. This isn't a case of "white man kills family" and the photo is him jet skiing. The media has actually been trying pretty hard to shame everyone who is being empathetic to him. The empathy is coming from social...

bsky.app

She’s referring to this article in the Guardian.

Media’s empathetic coverage of Luigi Mangione reveals an obsession with humanizing white male suspects

Yeah, I certainly agree with Mary's response to the guardian. The Guardian article reads like a billionaire trying to use the left's terminology against it. They are trying to use the fact that Luigi is white AGAINST him. And corporate media has mostly been slandering him. I do agree of course that if Luigi was black, some people would be less sympathetic to him.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

The heartless and criminal way the insurance companies make money is what most are troubled by. Along with how those in the media and political power are largely focusing on making an example of Mangione instead of trying to help all the victims of these businesses.

That's true, but this is kind of a rock-and-hard-place situation for political power; to suddenly focus right now on insurance companies when they clearly never cared that much before would concede that randomly murdering someone who is representative of insurance companies in some way works as a method to effect change, or even to just like, get the attention of power. Obviously they wouldn't want to send a message like that.

 

[Dakota Tebaldi]

Yeah, doesn’t really matter if he was a Trumpist, libertarian, or extreme-leftist (whatever that is), an incel or feminist, rich or poor. It isn’t him, the person, who is being idealized.

Wasn't it, for a while, though? I think if I go back and read a lot of the initial reactions to all of this, the guy himself very much was being talked about as a proxy for the poor and suffering. People assumed and were speculating on how he personally, or some member of his family, had probably been victimized in some way - I mean, I sure did - and they sympathized with him because of that.

It definitely hits different if the guy was actually well-off upper-class and neither he nor anyone in his family really had any trouble getting insured or having anything they needed covered. I have trouble sympathizing with someone just because they picked an acceptable target and ignoring their actual motives. I mean, the rich eating the rich doesn't exactly bother me either; but it's not the same situation as someone punching up, not the same at all. I think it does matter.

Poor people resort to noncompliance and in desperate situations violence because those are usually literally the only options they have. This guy had choices. I won't turn up my nose at a wealthy person who finds it in their heart to help the poors, but someone in his position had the resources to do a hell of a lot more about the problem than shoot someone over it, is all I'm saying.