Yay! The Two Worst People In The World Are Going At It

detrius

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Before he turned into such a fascist I think he had more atheist fans (this was several years ago). His politics have just continued to get weirder.



I've had a few heavily upvoted comments get removed, haha. Some mods are easily threatened by any opinion that isn't theirs.
Peterson recently was in a Jubilee Media video titled "One Christian vs. 20 atheists".

He was the "One Christian" - and when asked about it, he waffled around, so his counterpart simply pointed out the name of the event.

(The hosts later changed the title of the video to "Jordan Peterson vs. 20 Atheists" in a blatant display of intellectual dishonesty.)
 

detrius

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Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" (1986) has this caricature of a liberal psychiatrist who tries to cure the villains in Batman's rogue gallery. He goes on late night shows where he blames Batman for social ills and later gets brutally murdered by the Joker, alongside the show's host and the studio audience.



The character's name is Dr. Bartholomew Wolper and you can find references to him in various media.

Jordan Peterson is that guy, but in real life and on the opposite side of the political spectrum - which is ironic, because he tends to wear dresses that make him look like a Batman villain.
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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Peterson recently was in a Jubilee Media video titled "One Christian vs. 20 atheists".

He was the "One Christian" - and when asked about it, he waffled around, so his counterpart simply pointed out the name of the event.

(The hosts later changed the title of the video to "Jordan Peterson vs. 20 Atheists" in a blatant display of intellectual dishonesty.)
Peterson's views on many things, including religion is basically just incoherent word salad. That event was worse than most which is saying something.... hard to debate someone who won't even tell you what their real positions are....
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Yeah.... official reddit etiquette or "rediquette" say not to downvote just because you disagree, but many toxic mods even just remove to indicate disagreement. I've had mods just lie about which rule I was allegedly breaking just because they didn't like my post.

For example, I got a temp ban from atheism because I made a comment about Jordan Peterson fans being edgy. The mod who must have liked Jordan Peterson said I was banned for "calling atheists edgy" which I very clearly did not.
In my experience, an alarming number of online atheists (as opposed both to people who simply don't believe in a god or gods and get on with their lives, or to philosophers who actually take atheism seriously) are attracted to atheism precisely because it allows them to be "edgy," particularly about Muslims and women.
 

GoblinCampFollower

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In my experience, an alarming number of online atheists (as opposed both to people who simply don't believe in a god or gods and get on with their lives, or to philosophers who actually take atheism seriously) are attracted to atheism precisely because it allows them to be "edgy," particularly about Muslims and women.
I agree. I'm an atheist but don't feel the need to talk about it often. The main advantage to being an atheist is that it doesn't require ritual of any sort. But I think a lot of online atheists are mostly just contrarian. To many of them, bashing feminism is just part of that. I agree many are Islamophobic but think Islamophobia is still worse among Christians on average.

I also have observed how so many straight atheists turned against the gay rights movement precisely because they started to see it as popular and they hate the popular thing above all. I also think this is why some young "libertarians" seem a lot more anti gay than the ones I knew when I was into the movement some +20 years ago. They supported gays when it was the contrarian thing to do, and hate them now that they see them as popular. There is no solid principles behind any of their ramblings.
 

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One of the reasons I tend to avoid using the term "atheism" to describe my lack of belief in gods is that "atheists" make it look so labor-intensive.
AGREED! That and many "atheists" still have weird, wooster, supernatural beliefs. A surprising number are into tarot and new age Pagan stuff and all kinds of things. I have often just said "I don't believe in the super natural" instead.

This is also kind of why neil degrasse tyson said he prefers "agnostic."
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I think the term "agnostic" is a category mistake, at least as it's now generally used (in its original context, when Thomas Henry Huxley coined it, it means something slightly different) because religious belief is a matter of faith, not knowledge.

The statement "I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible" does not use the verb "believe" in the same way as does the statement "I believe in Bigfoot." The latter is a factual proposition that can, at least in theory, be proven true if someone ever manages to find reliable evidence of Bigfoot. The former means something more like "this is a way of looking at the world that makes sense to me," in the same way as do statements like "I believe in liberal democracy" or "I believe in a woman's right to choose".

Online atheists who try to score points by debunking young earth creationists are, in my view, as dull and dimwitted as their opponents who believe that Genesis is a scientific textbook
 

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I think the term "agnostic" is a category mistake, at least as it's now generally used...
Because I don't pay that much attention to the theories of non-belief, I'm not sure I know how it is generally used. My impression is that it means one feels the question of whether or not there are gods is either unanswered so far or that it is unknowable, therefore one doesn't definitively repudiate the possibility of their existence.

For myself, I'm not intractable. There is, theoretically at least, some degree of evidence that I would accept if it appeared before me (after ruling out hoax, unintended magic mushroom ingestion or brain tumor). But absent that miraculous occurrence, I live my life on the assumption that there are no gods or supernatural beings, and that the beliefs in them are the creative invention of humans because we just can't live without meaning-of-life stories of some kind.
 

Innula Zenovka

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Because I don't pay that much attention to the theories of non-belief, I'm not sure I know how it is generally used. My impression is that it means one feels the question of whether or not there are gods is either unanswered so far or that it is unknowable, therefore one doesn't definitively repudiate the possibility of their existence.

For myself, I'm not intractable. There is, theoretically at least, some degree of evidence that I would accept if it appeared before me (after ruling out hoax, unintended magic mushroom ingestion or brain tumor). But absent that miraculous occurrence, I live my life on the assumption that there are no gods or supernatural beings, and that the beliefs in them are the creative invention of humans because we just can't live without meaning-of-life stories of some kind.
I'd say that I'm agnostic as to whether the Loch Ness Monster exists, in that, while I can see no reason to suppose it does, and plenty of reasons to suppose it doesn't (no apparent food supply in the loch to support something of that size, for one thing), I can't say as a matter of fact that the Loch Ness Monster does not exist in the same way I can say with certainty that Manchester is not the capital of France.

To my mind, believing in God is more like being (or not being) in love. You certainly know whether you are or not, but it's not something you can (or that you need to) prove to yourself as might prove to yourself whether you're pregnant or suffering from COVID.

Once I believed in God, then I didn't, then I did again for a while and now I don't. That's not because I reassessed the question in the light or new evidence, or because of an argument I hadn't thought of before, but simply because that way of looking at the world made sense and then it didn't.
 

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I used to thi k about this a but more. Basically, my though on this is that "God" is, or at least should be, more akin to the "collective will/good of society. Not so much some sort of, omnipotent all seeing super entity.

I also came to the conclusion that I am "spiritual", but not so much "religious."

If that makes sense.

In the grand scheme of things, I also believe that when we die we just sort of, blip out, that's it.
 

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I'm a militant agnostic, that is, I know I don't know if there is a supreme beard in the sky, but I am 100% sure that you don't know either.
 
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GoblinCampFollower

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I think the term "agnostic" is a category mistake, at least as it's now generally used (in its original context, when Thomas Henry Huxley coined it, it means something slightly different) because religious belief is a matter of faith, not knowledge.

The statement "I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible" does not use the verb "believe" in the same way as does the statement "I believe in Bigfoot." The latter is a factual proposition that can, at least in theory, be proven true if someone ever manages to find reliable evidence of Bigfoot. The former means something more like "this is a way of looking at the world that makes sense to me," in the same way as do statements like "I believe in liberal democracy" or "I believe in a woman's right to choose".
I think you're mostly correct, but not entirely. The way a friend of mine put it is that most people who say they believe in god don't really do so in the way we believe tables exist. BUUUUUT, some people really do believe in god with the same certainty that we might believe our computers exist. I think some American Evangelicals and many more primitive cultures really do believe in god with that absolute level of certainty. Which is something most modern educated people can't really relate to.

A lot of medieval beliefs that we would now regard as insane make complete sense if you do believe in god with that absolute level of certainty. For example, the original rational for torturing possible witches or Satanists was that if they were truly pious Christians, god would give them the strength to resist. This is insane to relational people, but made makes complete sense to people who really TRULY believed in god with absolute certainty.
 
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I sorta miss being a mouthy atheist. I really enjoyed some of the arguments, but that dead horse has been thoroughly atomized. I get no satisfaction out of beating the stain where it once was.

I'm still saying I'm a "non-believer" if I feel like answering when asked. I won't lie or evade, but I generally steer the conversation away from the topic if it feels like it's coming up.

What I really am is a hard atheist / anti-theist. I actively believe that the ideas people project onto the universe about 'God' are too flawed and crippled with humanocentric self-contradictions for any such entity to live up to such expectations. Or too vague for them to be meaningful or relevant to anything.

Morality doesn't derive from some divine source, but from a critical mass of society. One need only look at our current political dumpster fire to see that the 'new morality' is 'Facts are stupid. Loyalty Matters Above All.' for a dangerously large and organized segment of this country.
 

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I learned long ago, from an ancient Indian teacher, I was a spiritual creature but not a religious one.

If one day in the far distant future, mankind discovers what many perceive as god is the "best parts" of ourselves, connecting us all, similar to an invisible spider web, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

IMHO most modern versions of religions are reduced to bureaucratic frameworks crafted from dregs of some really good rules for living life while getting along with others, used to beat the faithful into compliance while generating money for their leaders.
 
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Beebo Brink

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Once I believed in God, then I didn't, then I did again for a while and now I don't. That's not because I reassessed the question in the light or new evidence, or because of an argument I hadn't thought of before, but simply because that way of looking at the world made sense and then it didn't.
Hmm. I'm closer to that perspective than I am to the more militant argumentative atheists I've encountered (mostly in media, never in person). I just never believed.

As you said, it wasn't due to some argument I'd heard or evidence I'd been presented; I just started out as a non-believer and that framed my perspective even as a child. There were people who believed in the Christian god, and I knew people had believed in Roman and Greek gods once upon a time, and my Unitarian Sunday School urged us to respect people who believed in other gods. But at no time was I moved to believe in any of those gods myself.

I have my mother to thank for that. She was raised devout Roman Catholic and I know that her own transition away from Christianity was one of doubt, turmoil and even fear for many years. Having gone through that ordeal, I imagine she wasn't keen to impose any specific belief in me. She shared her own thoughts, however, which were complicated, conceptual and spiritual in nature. I listened politely, but they flew over my head as a child. I'm rocky ground for a spiritual outlook; it never took hold.
 

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I've had some occurrences in my life that I can only chalk up to some sort of divine intervention, so I absolutely do believe in God, and I identify as Christian. But I'm not particularly religious. I don't regularly attend church, and I tend to keep my faith to myself. For me, God is personal. To that end, I believe everyone has the right to believe what they choose to believe, and it is not my place to try to coerse anyone to believe as I do, and I have little respect or patience for anyone who does.
 

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To that end, I believe everyone has the right to believe what they choose to believe, and it is not my place to try to coerse anyone to believe as I do, and I have little respect or patience for anyone who does.
From my end of it, I also recoil from atheists who try to rock someone's faith with arguments. I get testy if someone's beliefs get out of their lane and tries to regulate my life according to their dogma, but otherwise it's simply none of my business. If they are wrestling with faith and need a sounding board for their doubts, I'm still not the person to tap. I have no idea what it's like to go from belief to non-belief, so my personal landscape is not a useful reference point.
 

Innula Zenovka

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A lot of medieval beliefs that we would now regard as insane make complete sense if you do believe in god with that absolute level of certainty. For example, the original rational for torturing possible witches or Satanists was that if they were truly pious Christians, god would give them the strength to resist. This is insane to relational people, but made makes complete sense to people who really TRULY believed in god with absolute certainty.
As I understand it, the rationale for torturing suspected witches or heretics was pretty much the same as is, more recently, the rationale for torturing suspected spies, traitors, class enemies or members of al Qaeda -- to extract a confession and information about their confederates and their plans. The inquisitors and witch hunters had the additional motive that by to bring the suspected heretic or witch to confess and repent, they were offering them the opportunity to save their immortal soul and, thus, sparing them the pains of hell.

Other than that I don't see much difference between the rationales of torturers at any point in history, whether they're inquisitors, witch hunters, or interrogators for the Gestapo, KGB, CIA or anyone else who uses "enhanced interrogation techniques."