Student Loan Crisis!

Kamilah Hauptmann

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Question: was the American public education system better and more open for social rise in the past, let's say in the 50s and 60s?
If I recall correctly, decades back education was about 75% subsidized. FREE ENTERPRISE TAX CUTS FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY over the years have shifted that toward the student. I forget the numbers but the shift was dramatic.
 
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Soen Eber

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If I recall correctly, decades back education was about 75% subsidized. FREE ENTERPRISE TAX CUTS FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY over the years have shifted that toward the student. I forget the numbers but the shift was dramatic.
When I was in high school in the late 70's, you could take classes at a community college for $14 per class. My first Pell grant for a sememster of college in the early to mid 80's was $800 and that covered tuition (but not books or living expenses).
 
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Zaida Gearbox

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Question: was the American public education system better and more open for social rise in the past, let's say in the 50s and 60s?
As far as I can tell, it has always depended largely on the affluence of the area in which you lived. If you lived in an affluent community then the quality of education in public schools reflected that. If you live in a less affluent community then the quality of the education also reflects that, and in my experience the attitude of the teachers and administration also reflects that. When I lived in the Richmond area, the area where I lived was relatively affluent. I was usually treated with respect by school staff. Then when we moved back to hillbilly country, the school staff had an attitude like they were some kind of benevolent dieties trying to impart just a little wisdom to the hicks. I not so politely reminded them on more than one occassion, that I have a masters degree which is more than a lot of their teachers have.

The area where I currently live has the highest school taxes in the state - which is NOT reflected in our schools. We are one of the worst districts in the state, but this is not an affluent community at all. Solidly working class. But, just to our south which is a different county. The school taxes are significantly lower, but the schools significantly better - but it's a more affluent community.

I saw a thing recently where our local schools were whining they're losing money because too many people are enrolling their kids in charter schools and online schools. I was like, "Well, maybe people wouldn't be doing that if our public schools weren't such a shit show."
 

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As far as I can tell, it has always depended largely on the affluence of the area in which you lived. If you lived in an affluent community then the quality of education in public schools reflected that. If you live in a less affluent community then the quality of the education also reflects that, and in my experience the attitude of the teachers and administration also reflects that. When I lived in the Richmond area, the area where I lived was relatively affluent. I was usually treated with respect by school staff. Then when we moved back to hillbilly country, the school staff had an attitude like they were some kind of benevolent dieties trying to impart just a little wisdom to the hicks. I not so politely reminded them on more than one occassion, that I have a masters degree which is more than a lot of their teachers have.

The area where I currently live has the highest school taxes in the state - which is NOT reflected in our schools. We are one of the worst districts in the state, but this is not an affluent community at all. Solidly working class. But, just to our south which is a different county. The school taxes are significantly lower, but the schools significantly better - but it's a more affluent community.

I saw a thing recently where our local schools were whining they're losing money because too many people are enrolling their kids in charter schools and online schools. I was like, "Well, maybe people wouldn't be doing that if our public schools weren't such a shit show."
Back in the mid-70's the "Minnesota Miracle" was a state initiative to spread the money around to rural & lower income communities so that every child had at least a semi-decent educational experience, regardless of wealth and local taxes. I think we still do it to some extent, I was just hearing about leveling out school funding last year. But of course cities and counties can still tax themselves to raise more funds so those that are better off still get a better education. Most or all states also have state colleges and technical colleges as well with income-based student aid packages, but funding is nowhere near what it was in the 60's and 70's.
 
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I always thought they should make student loads interest free, and that they just automatically take like 10 % out of your paycheck after graduation like they do your taxes. Then, if they're still not paid off after 20 years wipe it out. Nobody is going to deliberately not earn enough to pay off their student loans for more than 20 years - or ever. Especially if the loans are interest free - because the big problem with student loans are the interest in frees. You can be making payments, and the amount you owe keeps going up and up and up.
Because you are paying off the interest before you start paying off the principal. That's how loans with interest work.
 

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Jolene Benoir

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Back in the mid-70's the "Minnesota Miracle" was a state initiative to spread the money around to rural & lower income communities so that every child had at least a semi-decent educational experience, regardless of wealth and local taxes. I think we still do it to some extent, I was just hearing about leveling out school funding last year. But of course cities and counties can still tax themselves to raise more funds so those that are better off still get a better education. Most or all states also have state colleges and technical colleges as well with income-based student aid packages, but funding is nowhere near what it was in the 60's and 70's.
Property taxes are the biggest issue. The schools in the pricey burbs are like college campuses (Minnetonka, etc..), but go by Patrick Henry in N. Mpls and the teachers are having to buy supplies, books are short, etc... Huge differences between inner city and burbs, despite both being in the same county and having the same percentage of property taxes, but the city having more rental housing and lower value homes. In the inner city there is more of a need for specialized education in the schools, with more lower income folks, immigrants (language related courses), etc..

Meanwhile any state funds intended for education get cut any time Republicans get in office. Pawlenty, as an example. The schools then have to beg for money via referendum and often get shut down by voters. The people in the burbs, often, not always, but very often vote against any state money going to anything city related, because um, taxes bad...inner city people bad...

The destruction of our public schools is VERY deliberate and by one party, since at least Reagan, some of which is aimed at destroying teacher unions. Of course people are leery of sending their children to them and bounce toward wanting to send their children to self-dealing, privately funded charter schools.

That, totally not an astro-turfed, paid for by millionaires and billionaires, Moms for Liberty, just got publicly dinged for having this in one of their newsletters:

“He alone, who OWNS the youth, GAINS the future,” - Hitler
Segregation still rearing it's ugly head, based on location, location, location

All of the above was related to public school K-12, not college. It stands to reason that lower income students receiving a lesser education have an unequal accessibility to college, as well. If they have good enough grades, as some folks rise above limitations, they can access Pell Grants or scholarships, and loans. Those loans are where it gets dicey. Those fancy schools also gear their students up for college, as an expected continuation of their education vs the underfunded inner city schools. Technical colleges used to bridge the gaps, but are not as available as they once were. There are still some careers that a person can enter without a college education (plumbing, electrical, carpentry as examples), but those require some additional training/education as journeyman on their path. Often, someone already in those careers will take someone under their wing.
 
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Noodles

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Nobody is going to deliberately not earn enough to pay off their student loans for more than 20 years - or ever.
The stupid part is, a lot of Conservatives have been brainwashed to believe this will happen, and will happen MOST of the time.

People will go to college then just not work for 20 years so they don't have to pay!

Yeah, someone will go to college then just, become homeless I guess, before starting a career at 45 with a 20 years out of date degree.
 

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When I was in high school in the late 70's, you could take classes at a community college for $14 per class. My first Pell grant for a sememster of college in the early to mid 80's was $800 and that covered tuition (but not books or living expenses).
I feel like when I went to college it was just before things starting getting super wonkey on pricing (around the year 2000). I want to say a semester at the Community College I went to the first couple of years was around $600 for a full load. Then maybe $100-$200 more for books, but I also had a lot of fat hardcover books for math and science so they tended to be more expensive.
 

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The stupid part is, a lot of Conservatives have been brainwashed to believe this will happen, and will happen MOST of the time.

People will go to college then just not work for 20 years so they don't have to pay!

Yeah, someone will go to college then just, become homeless I guess, before starting a career at 45 with a 20 years out of date degree.
The days of being a career college student are long gone. ;)

 

Zaida Gearbox

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The stupid part is, a lot of Conservatives have been brainwashed to believe this will happen, and will happen MOST of the time.

People will go to college then just not work for 20 years so they don't have to pay!

Yeah, someone will go to college then just, become homeless I guess, before starting a career at 45 with a 20 years out of date degree.
They think they'll just be on welfare or work low paying jobs for non-profits, so their income stays too low to finish paying off their loans. But, even if someone did that - as long as they had more than minimum wage left after making their payments - they'd still be making payments - so at least the debt would be partly paid.

About five years ago, I looked into getting a paralegal certifcate. Now, keep in mind - this is not a degree, and you have to already have a 4 year degree to enroll in the program. It's a professional certificate program. At a community college - it would have cost more than my bachelor's degree cost in the early 1990s.
 

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If you were white, yes.

The 50s and 60s were a very volatile time for education.

I think that really depends on where you lived. I'd bet money that public schools in coal mining country in PA, WV and southwest VA were every bit as poor quality as some inner city all black schools because it's not like you actually need to be able to read to work in a coal mine, right? When I used to do phone surveys part-time we would sometimes ask a respondent their highest level of education, and we'd talk to places in coal country and other very rural areas where they'd say things like, "I graduated eighth grade!" like that was something to brag about - and maybe for them it was.

Also, waaaayyyyyyyyy back when my Cajun great-grandmother was young, she had to quit school in 9th grade to go work in a shrimp canning factory. It was a big point of pride for her that all of her children graduated from high school, and one went to college.
 
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I think that really depends on where you lived. I'd bet money that public schools in coal mining country in PA, WV and southwest VA were every bit as poor quality as some inner city all black schools because it's not like you actually need to be able to read to work in a coal mine, right? When I used to do phone surveys part-time we would sometimes ask a respondent their highest level of education, and we'd talk to places in coal country and other very rural areas where they'd say things like, "I graduated eighth grade!" like that was something to brag about - and maybe for them it was.

Also, waaaayyyyyyyyy back when my Cajun great-grandmother was young, she had to quit school in 9th grade to go work in a shrimp canning factory. It was a big point of pride for her that all of her children graduated from high school, and one went to college.
No, it really didn't. I know how it was when I was growing up in Lousyana and I'm not going to argue about it.

ETA: Got to thinking and realized I probably should have said "white male" and not just "white". Fixed. Sorta.
 
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Jolene Benoir

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I just want to say that in my post I was talking about the biggest divide being between inner city and the wealthier 'burbs/exurbs. I believe a lot of that has to do wtih white flight. I was very fortunate in that (after my parents divorced), I was able to attend a very good high school. It was in what we now call an inner suburb. As white flight, at least where I am from, has continued past the suburbs and right out into what used to be farm country, those same inner suburbs are are struggling now, as well.

When I was younger (junior high), I lived in what was quite a distance out from the city. There were still farms and country roads. It was mostly blue collar folks. Many of the folks that had been there are now gone. It has become a wealthy *exurb*, complete with McMansions. My parents old land, 4 acres (sold after their divorce) has one sitting on it and is surrounded by them as far as the eye can see. The entire area has become that. They even had the name changed for the location. We lived on what was called a horseshoe. There were trailers on many, not all, of the plots. One of the first things that the wealthy did after arriving was enact a regulation that there could no longer be trailers. Gradually, they bought up the surrounding land. The school that I attended was pretty good, relatively new, surrounded by the elementary and high school. They still exist but now there are also state of the art, best in class, college campus type schools geared toward those new residents, closer to my old home. So, now those older schools serve the population of the small town while those new, excellent schools serve the population of the McMansions.

When the white and wealthy folks move further and further out, they take their money with them. The rising taxes tend to get those pesky previous residents out. When they do that, they really, really do not want to pay taxes that go toward wherever they left. Of course, I am generalizing. People are varied and not all are like that. In addition, it's not always just those exurbs who do not wish to pay any more than they already do toward schools, but they tend to vote against any state money going toward schools (aka voting Republican).

That said, yes, there are poor and/or disadvantaged small communities, as well, or even sections of the very same town. I currently live in a medium-sized town. Its schools are relatively good from what I understand, but they are aging quite a bit. There is much good about this town. I love it. It is considered relatively liberal-minded and open minded, likely due to having a large college population, though colleges being what they are, not all of those students vote here. The remainder of the population tends to be on the greying side. It voted blue (just barely) in 2016. It is largely completely surrounded by a sea of red. Recently, there was a referendum so that the older schools could fix their very aged HVAC units. It would have increased property taxes. It was voted down.

Many people may be struggling, no matter where they live, and do not wish to have their property taxes raised while they are already on the rise to support schools, libraries, what have you that have lost their state funding. It tends to be more pronounced in inner cities where there are already more lower income folks who can least afford those rises in property taxes and of course, their landlords who don't want to see a rise. But still, many folks in those same areas will vote for a rise in them when it comes to their schools.

Property taxes are a horrible way to fund schools, especially as a certain party will defund education so that becomes the way that schools have to survive. Poor stays poor, wealthy stays wealthy. I will die on that hill.
 
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Aribeth Zelin

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Question: was the American public education system better and more open for social rise in the past, let's say in the 50s and 60s?
From what I understand, it was fairly cheap to go to state universities if you lived in that state, until sometime in the late 70s or early 80s - back when it was mostly white males going to school.... or maybe just white kids? I know by the time i went in the mid 80s, it was going up, but wasn't so bad - but student loans were compounded daily? or weekly, instead of monthly and you couldn't bankrupt out of them, which meant unless you were rich enough to pay them off quickly, you paid more in interest by a significant amount.

or, you know, what everyone else said.
 

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It's a complex issue that affects millions of individuals. The arguments made in the filing certainly raise some thought-provoking points about the potential implications of certain rulings. It's essential to carefully consider the balance between federal policies and individual challenges when it comes to government finances. If the Supreme Court rules in favor of the plaintiffs, it could set a precedent with far-reaching consequences for future claims.
That's a whole lot of words that really don't say much of anything. Could you please elaborate on those thought-provoking points you mention?
 
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Noodles

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Also some of the future consequences.
 

WolfEyes

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It's a complex issue that affects millions of individuals. The arguments made in the filing certainly raise some thought-provoking points about the potential implications of certain rulings. It's essential to carefully consider the balance between federal policies and individual challenges when it comes to government finances. If the Supreme Court rules in favor of the plaintiffs, it could set a precedent with far-reaching consequences for future claims.
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