Official Statement From Linden Lab On Accusations

Innula Zenovka

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I think you're quoting me, not Mona.

If that exists for the credit ratings agencies over here, I have never heard of it.
At least one credit reference agency with which I'm familiar, Experian, offers this service in the US

My understanding, possibly wrong, is these laws are so vaguely written here it is like saying if you are underage you are not allowed to drink without specifying that water and milk are ok.
This is the Texas law, which has recently survived legal challenge in the US Fifth Circuit Appeals Court. The challenge appears to have been that it compelled speech (one requirement is that sites carry a sort of health warning -- not, apparently, that "it'll make you blind," though) rather than that it was unduly vague.

The text looks reasonably straightforward to me

 
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I think you're quoting me, not Mona.


At least one credit reference agency with which I'm familiar, Experian, offers this service in the US



This is the Texas law, which has recently survived legal challenge in the US Fifth Circuit Appeals Court. The challenge appears to have been that it compelled speech (one requirement is that sites carry a sort of health warning -- not, apparently, that "it'll make you blind," though) rather than that it was unduly vague.

The text looks reasonably straightforward to me

I am not convinced at all they offer this in the US. Especially, in the link you provided a web page that links to the Experian web page which says

Used by: Organisations that need to check customer identity and age in the UK and globally.
Document checking with Document Verification
Also a search for "experian’s CrossCore Identity Services for Age Verification" only has one link to Experian which is to an experian.co.uk address.
 

Innula Zenovka

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I am not convinced at all they offer this in the US. Especially, in the link you provided a web page that links to the Experian web page which says



Also a search for "experian’s CrossCore Identity Services for Age Verification" only has one link to Experian which is to an experian.co.uk address.
On the chart at https://avpassociation.com/find-an-av-provider/ it does say they provide online age verification for "Adult Content (viewers)", which I'd have thought would need international coverage, but I need to know whether they provide age verification services worldwide anyway, so I've emailed them to ask. I'll post the information here when they reply.

Unless there are legal reasons credit reference agencies can't offer this service in the US -- which would surprise me since our data protection laws are, in general, tighter than yours -- it seems an obvious and growing market for them.
 
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Mona Eberhardt

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Remember that, under the GDPR, user consent is not a silver bullet that gives a service the right to do whatever it wants with the user's data. For instance, while I may consent to having Experian or what have you look at my national ID card, driver's licence, or - even worse - passport, this gives them access to data they should not access (biometric data etc). The GDPR also introduces the minimisation of data (being processed) principle, which means that the service must use the bare minimum of data that is absolutely necessary for them to provide their services.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Remember that, under the GDPR, user consent is not a silver bullet that gives a service the right to do whatever it wants with the user's data. For instance, while I may consent to having Experian or what have you look at my national ID card, driver's licence, or - even worse - passport, this gives them access to data they should not access (biometric data etc). The GDPR also introduces the minimisation of data (being processed) principle, which means that the service must use the bare minimum of data that is absolutely necessary for them to provide their services.
Yes, but the main credit reference agencies have large legal departments who will have made them perfectly well aware of their obligations under the GDPR and other data protection legislation, I don't see the problem. All they're going to need to record is that fact that they've seen a copy of your ID (if they actually need to, and can't verify your identity some other way, by asking you questions and comparing with data they already have on file) so they're satisfied you are who you say you are, and that they can confirm that according to their databases and public records you're over 18.

I've never had to produce any sort of ID, driver's licence or passport to obtain a credit card or a loan online, both of which require the lender to be satisfied I'm 18 or over and that I am who I say I am.

I don't see why verifying my age to access SL or any other form of "adult entertainment" should be more difficult than persuading someone who doesn't know to lend me a few thousand pounds to upgrade my kitchen, which I was able to do in a few minutes online not so long ago.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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I am not convinced at all they offer this in the US. Especially, in the link you provided a web page that links to the Experian web page which says



Also a search for "experian’s CrossCore Identity Services for Age Verification" only has one link to Experian which is to an experian.co.uk address.
Experian phoned me back today. They tell me that they do, indeed, offer worldwide age verification for age-restricted websites. They're going to send me an email about it. I won't be able to go into too much detail, since the inquiry relates to a business I'm advising, but I'll share what I can when I see the details.
 

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I dropped in to see if there had been some kind of resolution to the potential drama and I can see that it's still rocking along.
At least this time around LL appear to be taking refreshingly organisationally mature stance, rather than the way they did it the first time around.
It wouldn't surprise me if they move to a kyc approach to accounts and they might actually give us one actual primary account with the avatars being subsidiary (think banking with all the different types of bank accounts you can have under your name). That would make me really happy but I'm not going to hold my breath for that.
but a girl can dream...
 

Cristiano

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I dropped in to see if there had been some kind of resolution to the potential drama and I can see that it's still rocking along.
At least this time around LL appear to be taking refreshingly organisationally mature stance, rather than the way they did it the first time around.
It wouldn't surprise me if they move to a kyc approach to accounts and they might actually give us one actual primary account with the avatars being subsidiary (think banking with all the different types of bank accounts you can have under your name). That would make me really happy but I'm not going to hold my breath for that.
but a girl can dream...
I still remember when the whole German TV expose popped up and Linden Lab basically threw then VP Robin (Harper) Linden (forever my favorite Linden ❤) to the wolves to deal with the fallout. Granted, it was a different situation - it did not involve accusations against the company itself. Their response this time around does seem measured (and legalfied all the high hell), and I hope their ultimate response will be equally so.
 
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Khamon

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Robin was the best Linden we've ever had and that's a fact.
 
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Sid

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If history is any gauge, SL possibly being "Banned in Brussels" may attract Europeans to find out what the fuss is about, just like the "Banned in Boston" effect on banned book sales in the USA.
Why do you think that there will follow a banned in Brussels?
Because a person posted a lot of mainly baloney and unproven accusations on a reasonably back alley website?

The puritans and witch hunters are more found on your side of the pond IMO.
 
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Cristiano

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Why do you think that there will follow a banned in Brussels?
Because a person posted a lot of mainly baloney and unproven accusations on a reasonably back alley website?

The puritans and witch hunters are more found on your side of the pond IMO.
They were referencing the post above theirs from Innula talking about the various laws in European countries affecting SL. Hence the banned in Brussels reference in talking about the banned in Boston phenomenon, where banning something makes people want to know about it even more. For the record, those Puritans and witch hunters came from your side of the pond to America.
 

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They were referencing the post above theirs from Innula talking about the various laws in European countries affecting SL. Hence the banned in Brussels reference in talking about the banned in Boston phenomenon, where banning something makes people want to know about it even more. For the record, those Puritans and witch hunters came from your side of the pond to America.
I'd like to take this opportunity once again to apologise to the world for my ancestors letting the Puritans get away from England. In.hindsight.this.was.a.huge.mistake.
 

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I still remember when the whole German TV expose popped up and Linden Lab basically threw then VP Robin (Harper) Linden (forever my favorite Linden ❤) to the wolves to deal with the fallout. Granted, it was a different situation - it did not involve accusations against the company itself. Their response this time around does seem measured (and legalfied all the high hell), and I hope their ultimate response will be equally so.
I think this time it will be a rational response, as the world has become more adept at managing these things anyway but there's still time for them to fuck it up, so yanno, we'll see.
 

Innula Zenovka

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If history is any gauge, SL possibly being "Banned in Brussels" may attract Europeans to find out what the fuss is about, just like the "Banned in Boston" effect on banned book sales in the USA.
It's not just the EU:

As of March 2024, eight states have followed in Louisiana’s footsteps. Arkansas, Indiana, Mississippi, Montana, North Carolina, Texas, Utah, and Virginia have all passed laws mandating age verification for accessing adult content. Now, Florida, Idaho, and South Dakota are poised to join this list. Their bills have cleared both legislative houses, signaling a near-certain enactment of their own age verification laws.
.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Part 7 needs an article length explanation. I have not found such an explanation in my searches.
If you mean the "technical and implementation challenges" it mentions, this might be helpful

https://risk.lexisnexis.co.uk/-/media/files/business/white-paper/age-verification-feb-17-wp-uk pdf.pdf

The challenge for business, I think, is not to find a foolproof way of verifying customers' ages but to find one that complies with whatever are the legal requirements they must meet (including protecting their customers' privacy and data security) while not making the customer acquisition process so complex or intrusive that it deters people.
 
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If you mean the "technical and implementational challenges" it mentions, this might be helpful

https://risk.lexisnexis.co.uk/-/media/files/business/white-paper/age-verification-feb-17-wp-uk pdf.pdf

The challenge for business, I think, is not to find a foolproof way of verifying customers' ages but to find one that complies with whatever are the legal requirements they must meet (including protecting their customers' privacy and data security) while not making the customer acquisition process so complex or intrusive that it deters people.
That pdf doesn't mention requirements in the US once. That is what I am interested in. Is verification using a debit card adequate? I think minors can acquire debit cards, not sure. Is that something that would satisfy the legal requirements of the states implementing these minor access laws? Are third parties allowed to look at ages on debit cards? How about a checkbox saying I am over 18? Probably not adequate, but I would like to see a US oriented article addressing these questions. Facial recognition? What if I am an adult who doesn't want to broadcast my picture? Surely there are first amendment problems there. What if someone posts a NSFW message on VVO? Is VVO liable because they haven't gone through minor verification checks? I would like to see an article describing these scenarios in fine detail.
 

Innula Zenovka

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That pdf doesn't mention requirements in the US once. That is what I am interested in. Is verification using a debit card adequate? I think minors can acquire debit cards, not sure. Is that something that would satisfy the legal requirements of the states implementing these minor access laws? Are third parties allowed to look at ages on debit cards? How about a checkbox saying I am over 18? Probably not adequate, but I would like to see a US oriented article addressing these questions. Facial recognition? What if I am an adult who doesn't want to broadcast my picture? Surely there are first amendment problems there. What if someone posts a NSFW message on VVO? Is VVO liable because they haven't gone through minor verification checks? I would like to see an article describing these scenarios in fine detail.
Depends on what sort of business you're in, how large it is, where it's located and who your customers are.

I don't think Cristiano need worry much about people posting NSFW images, since all the legislation I've seen applies only to platforms with larger audiences and/or to ones that carry more than a certain amount of adult content (I'm no expert, though).

This article (written for the Wall Street Journal, I think) discusses some of the available techniques


I'd think most businesses would want to provide several alternative methods for customers to verify their age, but ultimately if someone can't or won't avail themself of any of them, then presumably they won't be able to access the site.
 
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