Nobody Cares about History

Dakota Tebaldi

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Some dickhead carved up a letter written by Abraham Lincoln so they could make as much money as possible selling each individual word.

This BS happens a LOT, and auction houses, appraisers, and "authenticators" and certification services are complicit in this destruction of history by enabling it.
 

Kamilah Hauptmann

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Lexxi

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I just rewatched it two nights ago and (TIL) found out the reason she was angry with him when she sees him is that he left abruptly after having a relationship with her when she was 15 (and he was 10 years older). Wish I hadn't learnt about it.
Definitely don't want to read the below then.
Good old George Lucas wanted her to be 11. With Indy being around 42 (okay, that was Kasdan who said 42). When Spielberg seemed to push back, Lucas upped her age by a whole year, though lowered Indy's age to 25. Course then Spielberg blew it (from being as creepy as the other two) by saying she was promiscuous and came on to him.

"Lucas: Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore."

Course it's Lucas, the guy who told Margot Kidder that women didn't wear underwear in space (or something like that).

oops. messed up the spoiler tags.
 

Aribeth Zelin

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I just rewatched it two nights ago and (TIL) found out the reason she was angry with him when she sees him is that he left abruptly after having a relationship with her when she was 15 (and he was 10 years older). Wish I hadn't learnt about it.
For the time period that wasn't too unusual - hell I knew a couple where she was 14 and with her parents permission in a relationship with someone who was 8-10 years older that she was - but they did love each other and he was seen as a stabilizing influence on her. And that was in the 80s.

I don't think its appropriate now, and I was a little weird on it even then, except I was friends with his younger brothers and dating his cousin, and so I saw them together fairly often.

Though I also know that it wasn't near as common in the 1700 and 1800s, since at least in my family tree, 17-18 and on both parties, seems a lot more common that the bigger differences [except when someone died in childbirth [might even be a few where someone died in a war - its not like its always older guys and younger gals]

Sorry, babbling.
 

Aribeth Zelin

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Definitely don't want to read the below then.
Good old George Lucas wanted her to be 11. With Indy being around 42 (okay, that was Kasdan who said 42). When Spielberg seemed to push back, Lucas upped her age by a whole year, though lowered Indy's age to 25. Course then Spielberg blew it (from being as creepy as the other two) by saying she was promiscuous and came on to him.

"Lucas: Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore."

Course it's Lucas, the guy who told Margot Kidder that women didn't wear underwear in space (or something like that).

oops. messed up the spoiler tags.
Welp.... I did think that Spielberg and Lucas for that matter, were better than Weinstein, but yeah.... I don't know I'll ever watch anything they have done, again.
 

Isabeau

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I'm sure I would have been just as disgusted to find out in the eighties. Just to be clear, it's the fact that a grownass man thought, really went through the "creative" details in his head, to include this in his story that grossed me out. And that's before even knowing there were discussions about her being 11 or whatever. What does that even bring to the story? What does it bring to Indiana Jones' character? Anyway, movie was still fun, just fuck Lucas
 
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Aribeth Zelin

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I'm sure I would have been just as disgusted to find out in the eighties. Just to be clear, it's the fact that a grownass man thought, really went through the "creative" details in his head, to include this in his story that grossed me out. And that's before even knowing there were discussions about her being 11 or whatever. What does that even bring to the story? What does it bring to Indiana Jones' character? Anyway, movie was still fun, just fuck Lucas
Well, just the age thing didn't bother me -too- much [that is, 15], because period film. But finding out that all -three- of those f*ckers thought that making her 11-12 was okay AND also that she's the promiscuous one? That just.... fuck all of them with a rusted spear.

That's flat out victim blaming at that point.
 
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Lexxi

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I was vaguely curious what would be acceptable back in 1936 (when Indy 1 was set). Which lead to me seeing laws (or debate) back then trying to raise the age of consent. And people today trying to lower the age of consent.

In 1875 the Offence Against the Persons Act raised it to 13 in Great Britain and Ireland. The Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885 raised it to 16. In 1917, a bill raising the age of consent in Great Britain and Ireland from 16 to 17 was defeated by only one vote. In Northern Ireland in 1950 the legislature of Northern Ireland passed a law called Children and Young Persons Act in 1950 that raised the age of consent from 16 to 17.
vs.

In July 2014 the Guardian cited a Home Office report that recommended lowering the age of consent in line with lower ages of puberty. The report suggested that ‘sexual behaviour with a girl over the age of 13 (the average age of puberty) is not criminal, provided that she was clearly as aware of what she was doing and its implication as might be expected of a girl of 16’. Although this report - Sexual Offences, Consent and Sentencing – was written in 1979, and is bound up with number of concerns about the influence of Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE) at this time, the idea that a lower age of puberty should lead to changes in sexual consent law still lingers.

Human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell recently called in The Huffington Post for a re-examination of the consent question, arguing that ‘[t]he existing consent at 16 law was introduced over 100 years ago in a puritanical Victorian era. Since then, society has moved on to more informed and enlightened attitudes about sex. Most importantly, the average age of puberty and sexual arousal has fallen dramatically to around ten to 11. In the light of new evidence, the issue should be revisited and re-examined.’
From that Guardian article linked above:
Home Office advisers argued that the age of consent be lowered from 16 to 14 and called for a dramatic reduction in statutory punishments for "consensual" sex with girls as young as 12, according to an internal 1979 research study obtained by the Guardian.
Huffpost is basically "the age of consent law set 100 years ago by stuffy religious people, and, since people of today are more enlightened, and already having sex at 14, then age of consent should be lowered".

CDC - "An estimated 55% of male and female teens have had sexual intercourse by age 18" & "These percentages have gradually declined since 1988 when 51% of female and 60% of male teens had ever had sex."
Study is more about "contraception at first sex" than age of first sexual encounter.
-https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2017/201706_NSFG.htm
 

Aribeth Zelin

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That conversation would have been considered pretty cringeworthy then, as I recall.
Yes, but I think the scene itself, knowing she was 15 when they first hooked up, and he was older.... that wouldn't have been so cringe at the time, I think. But the bigger context would have been cringeworthy then; and now is beyond cringeworthy. I don't know if I can ever watch anything by those three again.
 
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Innula Zenovka

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Yes, but I think the scene itself, knowing she was 15 when they first hooked up, and he was older.... that wouldn't have been so cringe at the time, I think. But the bigger context would have been cringeworthy then; and now is beyond cringeworthy. I don't know if I can ever watch anything by those three again.
I'm not so sure. Unless he was a rock star and she was a groupie, I think it would have raised eyebrows had he been any older than 17 or so. At least in the circles in which i moved, it would.
 

Aribeth Zelin

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I'm not so sure. Unless he was a rock star and she was a groupie, I think it would have raised eyebrows had he been any older than 17 or so. At least in the circles in which i moved, it would.
Yeah, except I mostly grew up in the US southeast - and well, also this was a period piece, and since this was about 20 years in the past, 1910-1920s? but the whole promiscuous teen thing 'seducing' an older dude?
 
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Isabeau

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It was written much later (early 70's for Lucas, then 80's for movie), and I assume to make the protagonist a rogue type hero to other men. It wasn't a documentary.

It's not that it wasn't a possible (but rare) occurrence in that time period but that it was included in the story to make the hero more swashbuckling manly. I can't think of another reason to insist (Lucas) on including this in the story. It doesn't add anything except to character development. Her age wasn't even mentioned in the movie because, well, cringe. They left it out. Why? Probably because it was a family movie.

Most men weren't into dating children. Elvis kept his relationship with 14 year old Priscilla (and supposedly didn't sleep with her till they were married) because it would have seemed weird. People of the time thought Jerry Lee Lewis was gross to want a 12(?) year old. To be fair, she was also his cousin, but what I'm saying is that even if the laws (written and voted on by guess who) were late to change, it was still frowned upon. Men who slept with 11-12 year olds weren't considered heroic or manly except by others with similar tastes. It wasn't something you boasted about.

My grand-parents had to ask permission to date, then marry (here you had to be 21 to marry without parental permission. Adult men didn't have sex with 15, never mind 11-12 year olds AND unmarried, without it being frowned upon.

Anyhow, to me, the insistence of Lucas is what I find gross. He wasn't writing this in the 1920s. It was added as a slap on the back "You rogue, you! Getting away with something you're not suppose to do!" :devilish:

I find we excuse a lot in general because it was "the time". Often, the difference between now and the past is that we can speak up now, instead of just "frowning". We seem to remember only that some things were done, or that some men got away with it, and forget the many who thought it wrong.

I may be reading much too much into this and completely off because I'm not from the US south. Maybe this was acceptable (encouraged) over there?
 
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I'm not so sure. Unless he was a rock star and she was a groupie, I think it would have raised eyebrows had he been any older than 17 or so. At least in the circles in which i moved, it would.
How popular was Raiders of the Lost Ark in the UK when the film was first released?

(You have an out by just noting how Americans were already seen as weird and creepy, anyway...)
 

Innula Zenovka

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How popular was Raiders of the Lost Ark in the UK when the film was first released?

(You have an out by just noting how Americans were already seen as weird and creepy, anyway...)
It was certainly very popular, but I don't think it registered with people that she must have been a young teenager when they were in a previous relationship -- to my mind, there's always been a certain suspension of disbelief/preparedness not to do the arithmetic among movie fans about the somewhat improbable way that middle-aged male leads in many genres frequently seem to have much younger, drop-down-dead gorgeous, girlfriends.
 

Soen Eber

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When I was a young adult the thought of a grownup with a 15 year old would have been the basis of a Hillbilly joke and not seen as credible, or possibly something a grandmother or great grandmother would have made a passing reference to with wording similar to "back in my time" Also, it would have been about a cousin or an in-law or someone she knew, further removing it from reality. But we were probably more sheltered back then.
 
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In the '70s? Maybe in one of Heinlen's later incest fantasies where the man's time-travelled back to when his mother was in college. But at least she was college-aged, not a teen. I can't bring up the details, I don't recall anything of Time Enough for Love or Friday, and I gave up on Job halfway through.
 
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